Second Appeal Hearing Help/Advice Please...

[RockinHippy]

We've finally just got a date for our second appeal hearing

• for those of you that don't already know - This is after a long,next remedy stressful drawn out farce, which ended with the local government ombudsman upholding our complaint against the LA & Appeal itself on several counts & pretty much agreeing we should have won our first, medical grounds appeal to get DD into our closest/easiest to get yo school.
  

2 things I'm not happy about with this appeal date letter & I'm needing to know what my rights are & what I can insist on.

1. The letter gives a date - but no time - the date is less than 2 weeks away
   

Letter just says time will be confirmed in due course - not impressed at all by this as we intend to/need legal help with this second hearing as I do not trust our LA to play fair at all anymore - We have the offer of legal help/lawyer from a local children's disabilities charities for our second appeal hearing, but naturally we need to be able to tell them a time too - is there any guidelines on this that our LA should be following ???


2.The way the letter is written, they are obviously intending to use our original appeal evidence for this hearing/appeal panel too.

One of the MANY issues with our original appeal was that the copy of my evidence sent to me, was a complete indecipherable mess - it also included reams of print offs of emails between myself & our MP & people he emailed on to - where I had asked for help with what I still believe was an error in the original assessment - this in itself was repeat copies of the same emails & made for a thick wad of unnecessary & very confusing paperwork that had nothing to do with the appeal.

Much if the rest if the evidence was printed off extremely badly too, 1 page doctors letters on the second page of info booklets etc & I found it difficult to follow - & I'd sent it in in its correct easy to follow format.

I did complain about this at the time & it was meant to have been sorted out, but by the appeal & ombudsman complaint outcome - I suspect it never was, or at least not properly.

I wasn't to resubmit all this evidence again myself - printed off & bundled up in the correct order, so that I know for sure that it is correct this time - this includes a slightly newer, recently updated version of an important information booklet which I ordered earlier this week.

Can I insist on doing this ??


TIA

[RockinHippy]

excuse typos - dosed up on strong painkillers due to disc trouble

[RockinHippy]

Thank you Tiggy

Just worked out that it's exactly 10 days - today - though that's not 10 full days - that's them presuming a second class letter will get here in 2 days & our local post is notoriously poor - & no time, just the date - I'm presuming that the appeal code 10 days notice also means a time too ?? - but as per usual they are playing it close to the wind

& no, I've not ticked anything to agree to less than 10 days - I've had no paperwork from them to tick - the only reason I actually know about the second appeal hearing at all is via the LGO - though I have spoken with the appeals department to chase it all up & get some idea of time a scale as I have DD swinging between withdrawing from the world & being a screaming banshee & then falling apart on me :( & I needed to try & give her some news

& thank you, I'm now going to insist I supply all copies of paperwork

I delivered the evidence & covering letter for our medical needs waiting list place to the CCP that way & had it signed for - which came in very handy when the Admissions office then tried to deny that it had arrived - though that's another current farce

DD could already be missing out on a medical needs place, as bar insisting the application is now with the CCP - 2 months down the line & it's still not processed - though I've been told by the SA office that it doesn't matter as too many DCS need to leave before they give places from the waiting list - a direct contradiction on what both the school & the appeals office have said - I've bitten the bullet & contacted our councillor yesterday over that - nervous of it after the MP farce, but nothing left to lose really as they are doing sweet FA anyway

Thanks again

[RockinHippy]

Thank you, just fired off an email & follow up call - initially the response was that we couldn't be given a time pre mid next week - so less than 7 days - that changed to giving me a time immediately when I mentioned that would give us less than 10 days to inform our Lawyer :)

[admission]

You do actually need to officially tell the LA that you will be legally represented. The reason for this is that the LA can and should in that circumstance also be legally represented - the clerk to the panel is there to advice the panel not the LA. If you do not tell them, given what has previously happened they will almost certainly ask for an adjournment to another day so they can have legal advice and of course wind you up more.

I would also question why they have your letters and emails to your MP in their evidence. It is not theirs it is yours and I do not think they should even be tabling it unless it proves that you have do or said something that is completely false.

[RockinHippy]

Thank you Admissions

I will keep that in mind as it's different to what is written in the letter I was sent - that just says to let the clerk of appeals,who letter is from know - scary that they can't even get that right :(

I won't know for sure until Monday if we definitely have this legal help, as I can't speak to anyone at the charity before then, but we do have another option too - though your comments in the LA then having a legal rep too worries me that it will turn into a big fight we could end up losing, the original hearing was bad enough - very different from everyone else's experiences with school appeals that's for sure

I'm wondering if representing myself, as I suspect I can argue DDs problems the best as I have the same condition - but with someone legal with me to watch out for further malpractice

To be honest, I suspect that is going on anyway - I've now been given until tomorrow morning to deliver my print offs of all the evidence - even though the letter said mid week for any further evidence to be in - it wouldn't be such a problem, but my computer file of evidence has now disappeared, so I'm having to search the whole hard rive fir each thing to print off - & our scanner has suddenly decided it doesn't like the operating system upgrade & is refusing to work, so I can't even scan the hard copy I have to speed it up - nothing like added stress with a tight deadline - I think I might be ready fir the loony bin by the time this is over, it's physically & mentally destroying me.

One thing you may be able to help with - I am thinking of & can't find anything saying that I can't

Can I use the ombudsman report as supporting evidence ?? - it would be great if I could as it states clearly & simply that not enough weight was given to fact that DD needs a close as possible school because of the CFS & other symptoms meaning she needs the shortst journey possible, other useful points in it too

THank you

[lougle]

I'll be interested to hear the answer to that question. My instinct says 'no' because the idea is that this is a fresh appeal and should take place as if the first hadn't happened.

[prh47bridge]

someone legal with me to watch out for further malpractice

Most lawyers know very little about school admission appeals. You may get good advice but you may also get awful advice. Check the lawyer's experience carefully if you want to go down this route. Personally I would recommend representing yourself and raising anything you are unhappy with here. There are plenty of experts who will advise you if it is malpractice.

Can I use the ombudsman report as supporting evidence

The panel is not supposed to know this is a fresh hearing. Appeal panels can often figure it out but the clerk and the LA won't tell them. The clerk will have seen the LGO report and should ensure the same mistakes are not repeated. And the ombudsman's report is not in and of itself evidence of your daughter's needs, only of what went wrong in the first hearing. The appeal panel should not give it anything like as much weight as the medical evidence. I therefore would not submit it as evidence.

[RockinHippy]

Thank you prh

That's a big help - the lawyer should know this sort of stuff well as they work for a local kids disabilities charity - but DDs condition is considered rare & it is a very complex one, especially the autonomic nervous system stuff - even DH struggles to understand the realities of that & he does try hard - the general consensus even with some doctors & physios we've had to deal with is that it makes her vulnerable to injury, more easily exhausted if she's not super fit & prone to aches & pains - which the experts in the condition know is just the tip of the iceberg.

So I'm thinking you are right, I might be best placed to fight this appeal again myself, my health isn't great either, but I managed last time on crutches & strong pain killers - at the time i felt I did a good job, so did my SIL who was with me & is a legal secretary - that's despite it being far more of an ordeal than I had been led to believe - I did feel afterwards that I had failed DD miserably & that losing must be my fault, but the lawyer has looked at all of my evidence & said I has put together a good case & that we should have won, which was born out by the LGO.


This time around I am expecting a gruelling battle, so won't be caught out & I also now know I can & will strongly dispute anything that is brought up that breaks the rules, such as allocated school etc - though I will also take my long list of reasons as to why it's no good for DD & play it by ear -

& that makes sense as far as it being a fresh appeal, so it's meant to be the first appeal - shame though as one point the LGO supported was that the school we want IS our closest - according to the LA another is slightly closer, but I can only guess they are measuring to the edge of its huge school field & not the building itself - the building of the school we want is closer & much easier to get to by bus too - but I can argue this point though & try & dig up some map evidence too


Thank you

[RockinHippy]

One other question...

As they personally haven't told me that the panel know nothing if our first appeal - can I mention it during the course of the hearing??

one new piece of evidence that I had intended to submit, is DDs hospital discharge letter from her being admitted for 2 weeks with severe stomach pain when we gave her the news we had lost our appeal - the doctors themselves put this down to anxiety & it's effects on her stomach problems linked to the condition & organised that she now sees a child phycologist

The discharge letter on it's own supports how badly DD can be affected by anxiety, but I would like to let them know on the day WHY she became so anxious

[prh47bridge]

can I mention it during the course of the hearing

One of the ways panels find out it is a second appeal is that many parents just blurt it out! So nothing to stop you saying so if you want to.

[RockinHippy]

I would also question why they have your letters and emails to your MP in their evidence. It is not theirs it is yours and I do not think they should even be tabling it unless it proves that you have do or said something that is completely false


I disputed this the first time round as it all arrived with my copy of evidence that I had submitted to the appeal - I did not submit it as evidence & the very nature of the reams of repeat emails confused it even more - plus the original email was my complaining to our MP that the admissions department were refusing to acknowledge & rectify a mistake with our original school application that they had made meaning that they assessed on the wrong form & had no medical evidence & that I had proof of & could he help have it put right

This was forward on to various bodies in it's original form & ended up with both the appeals & the admissions office

I dropped this part of the complaint before our appeal, as I was told by the admissions office that only statemented DCS were accepted as medical need at admission stage - so even if I was right, it would make no difference to our application

This came up during the tooing & froing of our LGO complaint & I am angry that the person who was the LAs rep at our appeal hearing & has been point of contact over our currently missing medical needs waiting oust place application - told the LGO, after mentioning my own health problems, that "I must have misheard, or had misunderstood what was said, as that would not have been the truth" - I felt this implied inadequacy on my party to get it right - when I actually had the phone call on open call & DH heard the same thing too - so it was a blatant lie on their part & one I felt tried to undermine me.

So if we have the same LA rep, I am prepared & will be taking no crap - though fingers crossed it's an easier hearing than last time

[RockinHippy]

Cross post


That's great prh THANK YOU

[admission]

Second appeals are always tricky. I have sat on a good few and one of the first signs of it being such an appeal is just looking at the papers, because the dates of various things will probably give it away that this seems to have been a very long time getting to the appeal hearing.
Secondly from the panel members point of view the clerk will usual be very careful to lay out the ground rules around salient bits of the law before the appeal starts.
Then of course as PRH says it usually takes to the first question to the presenting officer by the parent for the parent to blurt out that this is a second appeal. I think the best one took less than 2 minutes of the presenting officer talking through his case before the parent interrupted and said they are doing it again, lying through their teeth just like the LGO said in their report and proceeded to throw the LGO report on the table. I don't advice that. I did have to tell the parent to calm down and remain quiet whilst the presenting officer was speaking but they could ask as many questions that wanted to at the end of the presentation. But of course the cat is then out of the bag and the clerk has the really difficult problem of trying to make sure that the case is heard as a new case rather than a re-run of the arguments arising from the previous case.

[RockinHippy]

Thanks Admissions only just seen your reply & it made me laugh as I can totally relate to that parents frustration & anger & even though I'm normally pretty good at keeping it together & acting "professionally" but I swear the way things are goiing I might just snap & swing for this lot

I've had a hell of a few days as I feel I deliberately wasn't given any time to get my, slimmed down newly printed off & organised into easy to follow section paperwork in - they rang me first thing Monday morning asking for it - I was told that they HAD to send off the paperwork there & then - even though my letter gives me another day to get any new evidence in -

Technical glitches with the Computer, printer & scanner all weekend meant I was already tearing my hair out & out of ink so had to wait until momday so that I could finish it all anyway - Sod's law

SOOooooo they insisted they had to send what they already had & that I could submit my new packs on Tuesday which I did. I insisted that they make sure that the reams if emails between myself & MP were not included - the CoA read something & said that it wasn't there, so not to worry

I received my copy of the paperwork sent to the panel on Monday this morning.

They've only gone & done it again - nice neatly printed book this time - but the emails between me & the MP etc are still amongst it - & now we also have copies of emails between myself & the admissions team turning down the allocated school & more

I've put in a very strong email demanding that these pages are all removed & that the panel is told to disregard anything other than my newly submitted evidence.

I followed it up with a very firm clearly pissed off call - to be told that it must be the Admissions offices evidence - I've told them in no uncertain terms that they do not have a legal right to do this & that this is a repeat of part of the complaint already upheld by the LGO - same with the paperwork that makes it look like they are encouraging the panel to quizz me about the allocated school again - breach of code of appeals & also upheld by the LGO -

it was left that they would find out why the emails were there & my reiterating that I did not care why, but that they had no legal right to use these private emails - put in email too


I cannot believe how F'ing arrogant & incompetent they are, they really are playing as dirty as possible - I suppose at least I know what to expect this time & the lawyer is looking at it all for me & is going to give me some tips


I've also heard back from our councillor over the missing medical needs waiting list application place too - & they want to help - so will ask for help with this too

I've also had the "independent" clerk of appeal tell me that my new files weren't needed as the last panel DID understand DDs medical condition - if they did, then this is blatant disability discrimination


Unreal isn't it

Sod my being polite & politically correct at this hearing - I will be polite to the panel as they are new, but sparks will fly if anyone dares try to break rules - I am fuming

[prh47bridge]

The good news is that they have given you justification to go straight back to the LGO if this appeal fails. This level of incompetence may be enough to persuade the LGO that you won't get a fair hearing, in which case they are likely to recommend that your daughter is admitted without any further appeals.

[RockinHippy]

Thanks prh it's good to know I can go back to the LGO - though I think they have already tried to recommend that DD be just given a place - the LGO told me they were waiting on a response from the LA, after I had been sent the document upholding my complaint - the LA didn't respond at all, so weeks after the deadline given, the LGO requested the 2nd hearing - I can't be certain that's what they requested, but it would make sense.

I've now found out that the LA has submitted these emails as THEIR evidence WTAF!! chatting to the new CoA, seems there's little I can do about that at this stage, though I've been advised I can dispute it at the hearing & ask the panel to ignore it - they are right I suppose that it should have little baring in the case, as they are not relevant to the medical grounds appeal, but I'm very annoyed that I have made such a big effort to slim the paperwork down & keep,it as organised & concise as possible & the LA mess it up -

it feels very personal now though, so I will be giving the LAs rep hell at the hearing, intending to take someone along as a note taker to keep track of proceedings too, that way I have back up if I gave to complain again


Our LA disgust me - their response to parents like myself having complaints upheld this year - we know of others based on catchment & of course the 22 who went to the press - is to try & do away with catchments all together - meetings going on over the next few weeks apparently

[prh47bridge]

I wouldn't read that into the delay. The LGO send their full decision letter including the recommended remedy to the LA for comment before it is issued. It gives the LA a final chance to dispute any points where they think the LGO has got the facts wrong. It is possible the LGO altered its recommendations but it could mean nothing.

As Admission says, I cannot see any justification for them submitting these emails as evidence unless they believe it shows you have lied.

If they are repeating errors that the LGO has already highlighted a return to the LGO is unlikely to go well for them. But I hope that won't be necessary.

[prh47bridge]

Just to add, the LGO makes recommendations. It is then up to the LA whether or not to comply. However it is unheard of for an LA to refuse to comply in an admissions case.

[RockinHippy]

Thank you, that is reassuring, I would like to believe they didnt ignore the LGO, gives me more hope, though the way the report was worded it looked that way, based on the LGO basically saying the panel put too much weight on the wrong symptoms & not enough on others, which prejudiced our chances - I can trembler the exact wording & don't have it here, but we all read it as they agreed that we should have won our appeal, plus maladministration too

I really can't see what they hope to achieve by submitting these emails, if anything they just prove I was complaining from day one that DD needs the school for medical reasons - though at that point my complaint was that they had assessed the wrong, incomplete online forms & not considered the medical evidence sent with the paper forms at all - which thanks to friends in the right places, I actually now know that to be fact, though of course can't use that.

I dropped this complaint at the time, as the SA were lying through their teeth & I realised that if the MP couldn't help & they were all ass covering & lying, then I would get nowhere & so just concentrated on the medical needs appeal

I really hope it won't be necessary too, thnk I may just crack - the stress this puts us all under us immense, plus I'm currently stuck on crutches & unlikely to get off them in the near future, thanks to the knock on effect of having to cancell the abdominal surgery to be available for this & poor DD is a mess, she breaks down in tears everyday & her stomach trouble has worryingly flared up again as she's now worrying we won't win :(

I'm determined we will win though, because it is what's right, it's what she needs & I will not give up

[RockinHippy]

Tremble = can't remember - iPad gone nuts, lol

[RockinHippy]

I've just got a bit more info on our first appeal hearing, something I was kind of aware if, but not to the extent that it happened as I was distracted & I'm interested in your opinions on this as it's pretty upsetting TBH.

DH has just been with SIL & they were discussing the last hearing as she was with me, we intend her to be with us this time, but as a bystander so to speak as she's very observant & can type up notes in case if irregularities.

After our last hearing I knew she was very cross about one panel member, who did sort of take over the proceedings & was very aggressive with his questioning, but I didn't think too much if it, didn't take it that personally , just figured that was his role, though was aware, it was more full on than I ever expected - SIL called him a Rotweiller , she was angry about him, but didn't say why.

I was quizzed hard over some points of my original school application - I did make bad choices on that as were had a hell of a time around the time if school viewings, as my mum was seriously ill, bedside vigil for a month at the other end of the country & then she died leaving DF suicidal, so lots of time away from home, at the other end of the country & running backwards & forwards, major stress & - upset - so bar our 2 closest schools, I took the advice if a good friend who lives closish & her DS has health issues so she had similar needs to us - unfortunately I couldn't see well & misread the distance on our 3rd choice school, so it was never really an option.

During this guy quizzing me over this & DDs need for good pastoral care both for health needs & that her beloved god mum, who she dotes on has terminal cancer -,I cracked & became tearful, I'm not usually a cryer, but lack of sleep, stress took over & took a second to compose myself & carried on

SIL told DH today, that whilst I had my head down trying to stop myself crumbling & sobbing, this man was rolling his eyes at the other panel members, very dramatically & flamboyantly, so it was obvious he was annoyed

I did comment before starting the explanation, that I'm sure it would sound like a sob story, but unfortunately for us it was all true, mention of my mum dying was amongst some of the evidence

Looking back on that now, I wish I had known that too, SIL was very angry about it & felt that the hearing was loaded against me before I even started & that this man disbelieved everything & was OTT in his aggressive & disrespectful attitude - she told DH she didn't tell me as she knew by the nature if it, it would upset me more


Is this sort of behaviour normal or acceptable by a panel member, normal or acceptable, she compared him to the new Gay judge July character in TV - very bitchy & took over - do panels usually work in this way - good cop, bad cop etc etc

Trying to Phsyc myself up for next week, but this has shook me a bit

[prh47bridge]

No it is not normal. Panels do not usually work in this way.

They should question you to make sure they understand your case and to test the strength of your evidence but there is no need to be aggressive. And rolling his eyes at the other panel members when you cried was completely unacceptable.

The panel must make sure they don't do anything to undermine their neutrality. If the LA's representative received a similarly aggressive grilling you could possibly argue that the panel member concerned was even handed (apart from the eye rolling). If the LA were given a relatively easy ride that is potentially a breach of the Appeals Code. It is not the job of a panel member to act as counsel for the LA.

[lougle]

Not at all. Panels ask questions for three reasons:

1. To clarify the facts of a case.
   
2. To ensure that the parent, who is at a disadvantage in terms of experience and knowledge, has presented their case fully.
   
3. To put on record information that may be implied, to ensure that it is clear to the LGO that it has been considered (e.g asking about staffing when numbers seem generous, even though the answer is that there are lots of newly qualified teachers who need extra PPA time by law).
   

We're not there to see if we can squeeze an extra child in. Neither are we there to protect the school from taking another child. We're there to check if the admissions code was applied correctly and impartially, and in a non-ics appeal, decide if the child in question's need for the school outweighs the difficulties it would cause the school.

[admission]

The panel has to test the evidence put before them and this must therefore end up with asking what can be awkward and prying questions. However there is no need for the questioning to be aggressive. I would accept that if I believe that I am being given a load of bulls**t then I will press the point with extra (but very similar questions) to try and confirm one way or the other whether I believe what I am being told.
As far as rolling eyes are concerned, it is sometimes quite difficult to remain neutral in your actions, that is human nature. But all panel member are told to remain neutral and any with any experience will have been in a similar situation to yours where the appellant is breaking down. I do not carry man-sized tissues to all appeals for nothing, it happens in probably 10 to 20 % of cases, so you have nothing to be ashamed about and the panel member should have been more sympathetic to your distress.
Having said that it is all in the past and you should concentrate on the second appeal. If the same panel member is on duty for some reason, then you should object to them before the start of the appeal hearing. That will of course end up with the appeal being adjourned as they will not have a spare panel member they can magic into the room at a moments notice.