counselling after emotional affair

[loves2walk]

I just wanted to follow on from helicopter's post about counselling and breaking the stalemate after an EA - but didn't want to 'hi-jack' your thread helicopter! so thought best to start a new one.

I would really appreciate views from people about how likely/possible it is to change deeply ingrained behavioural patterns through counselling. Me and H are having couple couselling after an EA. He has a controlling style of behaviour, can be bullying, 'rises' to any confrontation and is likely to have learnt that from an overbearing, aggressive father and a passive mother. I, on the other hand, am not assertive, avoid confrontation at all costs and seem to be copying my father's quiet, non-confrontational style (so not repeating the gender types I grew up with, but adopting the peacekeeper role in the family that he represented when I was a child).

That is where we have got to with counselling. However, H doesn't agree with all this analysis, thinks there is no 'science' behind it, so could all be made up and because it is not possible to 'prove' any of it, it could all be tosh (he is a scientist!). So while he is agreeing to change things at home, and is certainly agreeing that bullying is not good and should not be part of our interactions, it is a rational agreement, and I don't think he 'gets it' at all in terms of the deeper patterns of behaviour that need to be changed.

So while I want to be optimistic about this whole counselling thing, if he is only engaging because I want him to, but not believing in the process, are we going to get anywhere at all?

The other odd thing is that I feel upbeat and optimistic after our sessions, because my feelings have been validated and me and counsellor are 'agreeing' and on same page - but H is very down after sessions. He was genuinely very upset last time and says he feels his security in the relationship is totally thrown and he is scared about lossing me. But he is frankly pretty depressing to be around ATM, really draining.

[countingto10]

How many sessions have you had so far Loves2walk ?

Me and my H found the counselling quite traumatic at times because of bringing up all the childhood stuff. It was hard confronting it and owning our own behaviours. It sounds like your H is in denial a bit. TBH when they have had an affair of any sort, it takes them a while to get out of defensive mode and actually seeing their behaviours for what they are. I found it quite hard too, understanding why I react as I do.

We had to have a session at CAMHS on Monday for DS3 who is ASD and extremely food phobic, and the social worker there pointed out I was extremely anxious and we all worked it back about 18/19 years when I had my 1st DS who is also ASD and how my anxiety built from his extremely challenging behaviour (DS from 1st marriage). My reactions to most things now have an anxiety basis and DH is beginning to understand this and so I am.

I think what I am trying to say is that 14/15 months down the line, we are both still working through things and gaining more and more understanding of each other. It doesn't happen overnight but I will say, my DH seemed quite "relieved" that his behaviours have their origins in his childhood and in that respect once he undersood that, he could work on recognising them and changing them.

If your H is feeling down it is probably because he knows you are changing and therefore the status quo is too. You will no doubt not put up with any more of his "stuff" and that is dawning on him and he is now going to have to change his ways with you or you will move on.

Good luck.

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

Changing aspects of one's behaviour is probably one of the hardest things to do, even if one is completely committed to changing. If your H isn't buying into it absolutely 100% and seeing it as necessary for himself, and not just to pacify you, then IMO it won't work long-term. It's rather likely that he doesn't feel that he needs to be "fixed".

It's interesting though, that the counselling has provoked an emotional response from him. So it's worth carrying on with - if it's making him think about how his behaviour is affecting you, and the possible consequences thereof then that's got to be good. With counselling, don't they usually say that things get worse before they get better? So some negative feelings are to be expected I would think.

[georgieseale]

Hi, everyones experience of counselling is different but mine was a very positive one. My Dh had some big anger issues and it was the biggest factor that ruined out relationship. No intimacy, no fun, no sex and didn't want him near me or the dc. I finally left him and was certain it was over and i wasn't going back.

I only agreed to go to couple counselling because i didnt know how we would move on, and i was very sceptical especially at first. can't say i was all that convinced after that first session but i went back for more and after a few sessions we had got the root of the problems and i'd opened up. Counselling really did help me and we turned things round. that was a couple of years back and now we are stronger than before our problems.

I'm no expert but has your H really accepted he has an anger or bullying problem? Until he really understands he has issues that need addressing he's going to struggle to let anyone in. Took Dh a while to accept he had an issue, but once he did he was receptive and made the changes happen. I'd say keep on with the counselling, keep talking to him outside the sessions and with a bit more time he might get it. hope it works out for you

[loves2walk]

Thanks counting for sharing your experience. I too am quite anxious and I can understand how you say it takes such a long time to work on issues. That makes a lot of sense.

Maybe as you say, it is just dawning on H that for me to be happy, he is going to have to change his 'easy/natural' way of reacting and that level of change will be hard work, so depressing to be facing that.

We are just not getting any of our old spark back and that to me is frustrating because I loved the fun side to our relationship - I only get glimmers now. But only 3 sessions in so early days....

[countingto10]

Have you managed to go away as a couple yet ?

[loves2walk]

The emotional response is a good sign, as you say frog. It shows he is getting some aspect of it. And maybe it can work long term because he has atleast started the realisation bit.

But you're right georgie - I don't think he understands how wrong the bullying/anger is. He grew up with it so it must be normalised to him. I grew up without any expressions of anger so it throws me off balance me and silences me.

[loves2walk]

We have not been away or had a night out for ages.

It doesn't feel right somehow. But we are talking about it and planning something, just slowly planning.

I want to shake off the distance I am putting between us, I just want to get that 'loved up' feeling again, and it's gone, I can't find it, if that makes sense

[countingto10]

Sometimes I think it is about just being kind to each other. I know when me and DH first got back together, I was an emotional wreck and he planned weekends away on our own. Our families were very keen to help and get us on an even keel again. I was also desperate for it to work out too.

We originally went away for my birthday, spent a day at the races and then went to a West End show so basically our first time away together was very full and so not much time to talk about us (although I did have one major "breakdown"). It seemed to work. Now our time away is spent just "us" so we can talk etc. I think initially this would have been too intense IYSWIM. Initially we needed to be doing things together and having fun to reconnect if that makes sense. Everything was too raw at the beginning and I was just numb if I'm honest.

[loves2walk]

I can see that totally counting.

We should do that - I'm going to give that some thought. Sitting across a table having dinner just feels too intense, whereas at home, we're starting to have funny chats about the kids etc. So maybe we need to be busy while being together as a way of bringing us closer.

[helicopterview]

Hello loves. Don't mind you starting your own thread on this at all. Good idea, in fact. Am reading the responses with interest and nodding along. Recognise so much of this.

I too am happy to be in H's company at home now, but like you, think sitting opposite for a whole dinner (my birthday coming up)a bit daunting.

My H also seems resistant to changing 'us', though knows we can't go back to how it was before.

I think at the end of the day I have been mothering him, and he's been letting me take on all responsibility round the home etc, and it sort of suits him. I do all the smoothing, negotiating, problem solving, phoning. Does he really want to step up and share?

I don't think he gets that the gripes/ resentments which build up can block or interfere with intimacy. And if we could examine them and solve them then the path would be clear for us to get closer again. I fear he thinks intimacy is a tap to be turned on, or a magic switch to be flipped.

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

hv I have the same situation in my marriage in that I also take all responsibility for housework/DC's arrangements/paying the bills. The Americans would call what we do "enabling behaviour". It's usually women but can also be men that are guilty of doing this. We blame our partners, when in actal fact, we are allowing them to treat us in this way.

I'd like to think that my H loved me enough to want to (without me having to goad and nag him) do his share.

[countingto10]

Re: the enabling/controlling behaviour. This was a lightbulb moment for me and my DH, he calle me controlling etc but was quite happy for me to do everything for him. He had major problems with his teeth (not his fault btw - butcher dentist since struck off) but I would make appointments for him, talk the dentist to arrange antibiotics, go and collect them etc. His excuse was he was too busy (he also failed to keep appointments I made as well).

All this was going on before and during the counselling. After the session about me relinquishing control and him taking control of what he should take control over, I told him, his teeth were now his problem and I was having nothing more to do with them and he actually "got it". He is much happier now he is taking responsibility and "grown up" and so am I.

You just have to make a stand ladies and accept no excuses.

[helicopterview]

loves2walk - just re read your earlier post and spotted another couple of similarities

...my H also is easily angered. Not violent at all, but shouts. I never got shouted as a kid, and find it intimidating (which is the intention I should think) I prefer to reason with the kids, or try to understand someone else's point of view first.

Do you have any strategies for reducing the amount of shouting/rising to confrontation? I'd love some ideas

It's hard to feel love and affection for someone who's showing no maturity/control over their emotions, and doesn't care if they are stressing you out.

And secondly I also feel better after counseling, whereas my H feels more hopeless. I think that's because he didn't think there was anything to 'fix', other than me forgiving him, and now he has to face up to all the work that needs to be done.

Is your H daunted at the prospect of the work ahead?

[loves2walk]

Thanks for coming on this thread helicopter - there do seem to be many similarities in our situations, although big differences too as it sounds as though your H has no contact with OW now. That must be a relief for you. My H works with OW and sees her daily and there is just no way of changing that in the short term.

I can see these 'enabling behaviours' everywhere in my day to day life, frogs. It is hard though to hand over responsibility for certain things. I have just started doing more work involving travelling and as this has coincided with my H's understanding he must do more at home, he is really stepping up to the plate in this aspect and taking days off work to be the home based person. BUT I still feel this ridiculous need to leave him a long list about what goes in packed lunches, suncream for playground after school, which veg to do for tea etc. So handing over stuff is hard.

But even though I am handing over some bits, there is so much of this 'enabling bahaviour' that I think must be hidden. Maybe the counselling will help bring it out.

For our next session, we have to work out what type of relationship we want/what changes we want our partner to make. I already have a long list in my head, but imagine like your H helicopter, my H will be fairly silent when it comes to what he wants to change. And therein lies the problem....

[loves2walk]

Bit of a cross post there!

Yes daunted I think about the changes and uncertain if 'things will be unearthed that will fundamentally change the relationship' - think that was his comment when I asked why he was so down this morning after not sleeping well last night.

Strategies for reducing the anger - well that's a hard one. I am now on top of some bits of it in that I respond quickly to anger towards the kids by saying 'that is not a kind way to speak to xx and I think you should apologise'. I did warn him I was going to start saying that, just told him that I could not have the kids thinking I agreed with his anger. He doesn't like it at all and we often end up rowing in front of kids about how reasonable his response was, so that is not good - not one to be borrowed! I will think what else I do to see if there is anything more helpful, must make a work call now.

[helicopterview]

I can really relate to the long list!

That's not really him taking responsibility is it? It's your responsibility, which you are delegating.

He still doesn't need to think for himself. It's not like someone tells you all the things that need to be done. You just figure it out.

[loves2walk]

"It's hard to feel love and affection for someone who's showing no maturity/control over their emotions, and doesn't care if they are stressing you out."

That's it totally. I have said to my H that everytime we have an 'issue' with his anger, i.e. when it has gone on a few days and all come to a head, it chips away a bit of my love for him.

But it's like an alcoholic not able to see alcohol as the problem - my H does not see that his anger is at the crux of this.

I wish I had some useful strategies to share on dealing with a partner's anger, but I've realised in the last hour, I don't. My way of dealing with it, is to express my unhappiness again and again and again, so like you said helicopter in your last comment, that is not him taking responsibility - it is me taking it and delegating, passing on my unhappiness and 'asking' him to act differently.

How to get a person to understand that anger erodes love and affection? I started reading Lundy Bancroft's book about angry, controlling men, but my H is so far away from the examples given, it didn't really mean much to me. He is not violent and his bursts of anger are not continual, just here and there about stuff to do with kids usually. Maybe i should pick it up again. Have you read it helicopter?

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

loves To throw some more "psycho" terms into the pot - have you ever read anything about Transactional Analysis? I'm sure your counsellor can explain in more detail,but basically we are all operating from a Parent, Child or Adult ego-state when interacting with other people. These expressions don't mean the same as you would normally use them.

My therapist explained that my DH and I are interacting in a Parent - Child mode rather than an Adult - Adult mode. This is why I assume responsibility, don't expect him to get anything right, feel the need to nag as if he's a teenager. He once said that I treat him like my teenage son, but then that's because he behaves like one. People who react with inappropriate anger or despair are normally always being the Child in the interaction.

I don't know if this helps. I know it helped me understand why DH and I interact as we do, but I still don't know how to fix it.

[loves2walk]

Thats sounds really relevant to us.

My H was certainly acting like a child this morning in his depression over our relationship/counselling. The fact that I was not comforting him, meant he struggled more, so maybe he was expecting me to take on 'parent' role and make him feel better. But I didn't and he accused me of being cold with him. But I think I was being pragmatic and not engaging with what seemed like childish, feeling-sorry-for-oneself emotions. A bit like not engaging with a toddler having a tantrum - it does no good.

The transactional analysis idea really fits with anger issue too. When H is angry at home with DS1, I will speak to H as though he is a child, or teenager. I can feel myself doing it, I 'tell him off' for being angry and I speak quietly and slowly in a slightly patronising voice. I must be playing the 'parent' role there - how terrible is that?! But I do it I suppose because he is acting like a child and for example he might shout at DS1 for putting too much food in his mouth or dribbling his cereal all over his schooltop - I mean, how bad are those things? Surely not necessary to shout at a 9yr old for doing that - so he is acting like a child and therefore I step in with 'parent' role. Yes, that's us.

I must read some transactional analysis stuff - though of course my H will probably roll his eyes at that.

[loves2walk]

So frog, have you been able to increase the number of adult-adult interactions with your H? Just thinking how that would work with someone acting like a child. I can't see how you could pull them out of it. Did you ask your counsellor for strategies to get a 'child' to start acting like an 'adult'?

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

It's like pulling teeth quite honestly. This morning I guilted him into taking the DC to school as I'm not well. So clearly not a very good adult-adult interaction either. In order for it to work both people have to engage in the therapy. My DH dismisses these sorts of things as nonsense so I'm going to have to engage in some "stealth" TA.

Dysfunctional behaviour, according to TA, is largely determined by self-limiting decisions made in childhood in the interest of survival. So if people are acting from their Child, it is very difficult to change that ingrained way of thinking and acting as it has always been their way of coping with things.

[helicopterview]

Am popping out just now.

The 'chipping away' at the love totally rings bells with me. As does the anger over tiny things, and my desire to get him to stop.

Haven't read anything good about this, but did have a bit of advice from my counselor today.

Back in a bit

[loves2walk]

I have just done an online TA questionnaire! Turns out I am high Adult and then Child, but not Parent. I think the questionnaire identifies how you like to act, but not how you will in any given situation. So I will use this way of analysing our interactions and see where we get.

Following on from the conversation with countings - I have a babysitter booked and coming in half an hour and I plan that me and H will go for a walk this evening, then DVD rental & takeaway to bring home.

[FrogInAJacuzzi]

loves You would be acting from a different ego state with different types of interactions. So with your colleagues/friends/the bank manager you will be the rational Adult, but in your relationship with your DH you're locked into the Parent - Child mode. Maybe you could also become a Child with him for a while. If he acts petulant and/or shouty then be petulant and/or shouty right back. Stop taking care of everything (or just his things to start off with) - so no more washed and ironed shirts, no more lists. Make dinner for yourself and the kids only. I know it's easier said than done, but I'm going to start trying it also with the little things at least.

[helicopterview]

Counselor suggested I say H may feel angry about whatever just happened, but his outburst has affected me/kids, and can he please find another way of getting what he wants. No criticism, no specific advice. Just make him feel he's responsible. No rescuing of situation afterwards.

Don't know about you, but I feel my H feels I will always smooth out a problem he's created/escalated, so feels he can act however he likes.

My problem is that if he shouts at kids, and I do nothing, I worry they will think I am condoning. Whereas couldn't be further from truth - I absolutely do not think yelling is the way to get what you want.

Sorry - not much help to you!