Yet another sex question.

[confusedmum]

This is in some way related to the flirting thread, but is something I feel quite concerned about and would appreciate any advice, esp from the bloke's perspective (SH?).

I have not posted this under my usual Mumsnet chat name, possibly because it is something I feel quite embarrassed about. I know a lot of people use chat rooms (myself included, obviously)and I have recently discovered that my d.h. has been using the internet porn sites - not just the obvious naughty pictures/ stories etc. which I have no objection to, but to chat with real people over the net. I discovered that he was either answering or posting ads on one of the 'personals' sites and it was obvious that the conversation was purely sexual.

At first, I was very shocked, though maybe I am a bit naive. Our sex life is okay - it wouldn't make national headlines, but then we have a couple of kids , one still a baby, and have been together a long time, so its understandable that things taper off a bit. Do other mums feel that this is acceptable in a marriage? I'm almost certain d.h. has not met up with any of these contacts: maybe it was just a bit of fun after a bit too much to drink one night? Or maybe this is something which men see as acceptable these days. I have asked him in a roundabout way whether he has ever/would engage in this kind of 'cyber relationship' and he said no, so I don' feel I can really ask again, esp as the only way I know in the first place is because I read his e.mail, which I know was wrong and a bit like reading someone's diary.

What do you all think? At first. I was really hurt and felt betrayed, but now (this was quite a few months ago), I feel I may have overreacted, esp. as I don't think he has actually been physically unfaithful since we met over 10 yrs ago.

Any opinions? Where doos one draw the line between a bit of harmless flirty chat and infidelity?

[PamT]

I think I would feel hurt if I found out that my DH was having sex chats with other women. If he has only done it occasionally out of nosiness or just for amusement then I wouldn't be worried too much. If on the other hand he does it because he enjoys it and gets turned on by it then I think it is a bit more serious. My DH often looks at rude pictures and they tend to get circulated round his group of friends if they are gross enough and this doesn't bother me but I think when the connection is more personal and he is actually talking to the people involved it is a bit different.

If you can't talk about this to him I think you should leave your computer turned on so that he can see what you have written (or print your posting out and leave it for him to see). Perhaps if he knows how much it has upset you he will discuss the situation and stop doing it. Whilst it is still a secret you are only going to get more upset about the whole situation.

[namechange]

confusedmum, I think I know how you feel, a bit, a similar-ish thing happened to me and I wrote down how I felt about it at the time. Here it is:

"If you read ?I caught my boyfriend wanking over porn on the internet? in a magazine problem page what advice would you give? I would probably have said: ?So what? All men do it, it doesn?t mean they love you any less, he wasn?t being unfaithful with a real woman, it?s only porn; ignore it or join in, depending on where you stand on porn in general. Come on woman, this is the twenty first century!? Until now. Because this happened today and I didn?t react that way at all.

We know that life in the problem pages doesn?t always accurately reflect real life, but when this happens to you the reality is awful and shocking and sad. Maybe some background is useful here: my husband and I live together. He is intelligent, articulate, professional and handsome. Not to mention extremely sexy. Not your archetypal dirty mac brigade, or sorry bachelor. And our sex life is great, always has been. So why did he need to do it, and, more to the point, why was I so shocked? Well, for one I didn?t like the fact that he was unpleasantly surprised to see me home early, rather than thrilled to see me. And I was therefore caught in cliché: girlfriend or wife alters her plans, discovers something she didn?t want to know, everyone?s unhappy.

Although I don?t necessarily object to porn per se, because I haven?t sorted out where I stand on that thorny issue, I objected to this, big time. If it had been a pornographic magazine, maybe I?d have felt differently, who knows? But it wasn?t. There is something seedy and sordid and almost tragic about seeing a grown man, naked and fully erect, hunched over a computer frantically scrambling to close whatever is on the screen in front of him. Something he doesn?t want you to see. And although you know damn well what it must be, because what else could you possibly object to? it is still shocking. Especially if you heard a low moan as you walked up the stairs and assumed it to be the sleeping mumbles of your lover.

So why is it shocking? Maybe because, although women have a sex drive too, most wouldn?t use internet porn to express it. There may well be porn on the internet for women, but I wouldn?t know because it hasn?t occurred to me to look. My guess is that most internet porn is by and for men, just as it is on the newsstands. Big breasted women, lesbianism, threesomes I expect. So why do men want to look at and wank over porn on the internet? I?ve thought about this and so far have come up with the following: it?s immediate, which suits a need for instant gratification, and it?s free. There?s no embarrassment involved in buying it ? unless you?re discovered ? and it is relatively anonymous. It?s also naughtly, slightly dangerous (precisely because you might get caught) and sordid".

That's as far as I got. And then we talked about it. IMHO, anything that you wouldn't like done to you if it was the other way around is unacceptable in a relationship. This I therefore construed as unacceptable behaviour in my case. Hard one (excuse the pun!) to deal with, but I'd tackle (ooops, another accidental one!) him about it and explain how you feel. We talked about it, agreed it was unacceptable and he apologised. Good luck. I think your DH has taken it all one step further and I would be livid! HTH. Good luck.

[threeangels]

I feel the whole thing whether there was physical contact or not is just being very disrespectful. Why does he feel the need to go into chat rooms like this. These things can start off one way which may be exceptable to some but then may turn into something more serious. I know in my heart that I would be very hurt if this thing was going on with my dh. (Just the chat room alone). Why do you have no objection to the dirty pictures? If I found my husband looking at porn pictures Id kill him. Whether a physical thing or not). I know though he has a great deal of respect for me and our marriage and could care less about what some other famale looks like. You should not allow this kind of thing. I realize you feel its ok because its nothing in the physical way but sometimes things can start out small then escalate into a more bigger problem. Why take this chance with the chat rooms. Im not saying your dh would cheat on you because I dont know him. I just know you are allowing temptation there for your husband. As far as the email thing you shouldnt have to feel you are invading his privacy. I wouldnt. My husband and I look at each others email all the time. We dont have anything to hide from each other. I would be quite upset if he would not allow me to see his email. That would mean he is hiding something. I know I would not go for that anyway. Our marriage should have no secrets between us. I hope everyones opinions help you with this. Good Luck.

[ariel]

I posted a message a few months back about this subject, I discovered dh had been chatting to women on the net and had even sent and been sent photographs, i was really confused, i mean is this "cheating" or harmless flirting, i must admit im still not sure and still quite confussed about it all.Some people say its no more harmless then haveing a pen pall but i really do think its alot more personal then that. Sorry i have no advice that could help you, but i do know how you feel, like i mentioned b4 im still non the wiser and still very confused about the whole situation.

[oxocube]

threeangels,Thanks for your reply, although I must admit to not necc. agreeing with you on the issue of pornography. I know this is a minefield and that many women object on moral grounds and on the assumption that it is degrading. Personally, I do not have any objection, as long as, and this goes without saying, the adults in question are consenting and are actually adults. Anyway, to get back, I think my issue is more that I feel in some way inadequate, that d.h. feels the need for other turn ons. Our sex life is quite rich in terms of fantasy play and that sort of thing and maybe it is the secretive nature that makes me feel threatened rather than the sites themselves.BUT I am sure, esp having read the replies so far, this is a much more common issue than I had previously thought.

Namechange: thanks for being so frank. I didn't know whether Mumsnet was really the kind of forum where I could address this issue, but obviously it is!

[SimonHoward]

Confusedmum

The blokes perspective on this might be a bit out of whack as I was brought up in a very open family and porn was not something that was ashamed of or hidden away (unless it was really good and you wanted to stop someone nicking it).

Using porn sites or some of the various group/community/club sites dedicated to this sort of thing is in my eyes no better or worse than reading a mag or watching a video. Mainly they are full of pictures or stories and are there to provide some fun (well I found them fun, DW usually just laughed). Saying that though the one I stumbled upon dedicated to womens feet was a triffle strange.

Even some of the adult chat rooms are nothing more than a way for most people that use them to get a little fantasy in their lives. I've met, online, a number of what have become good friends in various adult rooms (not be confused with porn site chat rooms as these are designed for adults to chat without kids around) and have chatted over the internet using a camera and mic and even on the phone to more than a few.

As for purposefully cruising these rooms or ones on a porn site with the sole intention of finding someone to meet up with, I can't see the point unless they are really desperate for something that they can't get at home. Saying that though I have encountered a number of people, male and female, in some rooms that are looking for something in their lives that is missing but they are perfectly happy with the rest of their lives. Does it make them a bad person? I personally don't think so.

I wish I could say 'Don't worry' or 'He's bad' but without knowing what he has done and why it would be impossible for me to say. Talk to him and tell him you are worried.

PamT

Why would you be upset to find your husband having sexy chats with women on the internet? Unless he is being very careful and using a microphone/cam to chat then there is a very good chance the 'women' he is chatting with are really men, quite often gay men. I know this because I have been chatted up by 'women' that have wanted me to turn on my webcam and/or mic but then said that while they had one or both they were broken (big giveaway) and when I have offered to chat to them on the phone they have cleared out of the room so fast it is unbelievable. I even once created a chat room and had a couple of friends in it with me to see what happened as they didn't believe it. Took about 20 mins and they said sorry for not believing me (my other sport is spotting fake pics in peoples profiles and then asking them about it or sending them another pic of 'themselves' that I have found elsewhere, they usually run then as well).

[SimonHoward]

After reading some of the other replies I need to ask a few questions myself.

Why do some/most women find pornography offensive?

And why do women object to men looking at it or watching videos/DVDs?

Is having a sexy chat on the internet/phone really that bad? And if so then why?

Surely anything that stops a family from breaking up or a man/woman from going out and having an affair is better than them really doing it?

[PamT]

SimonHoward, you're really putting me on the spot now. I would feel betrayed if I thought my DH was getting a thrill out of speaking to other women. I don't mind harmless flirting where although there might be sexual inuendos nobody is really thinking about getting it together, but when the subject gets on to sex I believe that it is something that is personal within the couple's own relationship. If he did it for a turn on then I would feel that it was as good as adultery, even if there has been no physical contact the thought is still there. Maybe it comes down to a few personal taboos and hangups about sex.

I don't want to trivialise the subject, but some friends and I recently had a great laugh over someone from our school who had put his photo on Friends Reunited. He claimed to have worked as a porn star in Hollywood for a while and his photo was of a nude adonis with a tool which reached his knees. He also claims to be a donut maker in our home town now! The photo did the rounds of the school playground, playgroup and toddler groups and it wasn't until a couple of weeks later that someone told us he was only about 5'4" tall and though it was his face on the picture, the rest of the body certainly didn't belong to him. None of us wanted to, tried to or indeed had an orgasm over the photo, we just stared at it in disbelief and amusement. Perhaps some would say that I have double standards, but I have very clear limits within my own mind as to what is acceptable.

[SimonHoward]

PamT

Maybe it is because men find more pleasure in visual stimuli that we like looking at pictures and most of us like reading stories about it as well.

Also if a man is bored or not getting any sex then his mind will tend to wander and think 'what if?', it happens almost every time. Surely it is better that he do something like that than really go out to a pub or club and pick someone up?

[PamT]

I think virtual sex is as much an infidelity as going out to a pub/club to pick someone up, the only difference being that there are no unwanted pregnancies or STDs. I know that men have a greater need and an almost always ready and waiting condition where sex is concerned. Wasn't it said somewhere that men think about sex approximately every 20 seconds? Perhaps there was an error on the production line somewhere because most women just can't or don't personally need to keep up with that sort of desire. A woman's libido certainly seems to decline with mood, exhaustion, state of mind etc whereas a man is ready and willing at the drop of a hat. I just don't agree that a man should go and fulfill all his needs elsewhere.

[Mooma]

SimonHoward - the reason I personally object to porn is that 99% of it is made for men, and even when the women who feature in it argue that they have chosen the work and are not being exploited, the whole industry is making money out of images which objectify women as being sexually available and ready for anything.
I never used to feel so strongly when I was younger, and then I had three daughters...
I look at those images, and think, that is someone's daughter.
Would you be happy if a child of yours made a living as a porn star?
You say you grew up in a very open-minded home, so perhaps you would.

[winnie1]

PamT, I completely agree with you. This is a betrayal. Confusedmum, you are not overreacting. Simonhoward, 'a bit bored' or 'not getting any'... no wonder women feel undermined and upset by such behaviour; what are you saying? that such behaviour is a reaction to the sex in the relationship? No wonder women feel insulted. How about communicating? As for the idea that its better online than 'in reality' because it saves relationships, really? If a relationship is based on lies and sneaking about it is very likely heading for the rocks anyway. Of course if both partners know about it and have no problem with it - fine...obviously... but surely this is just about having your cake and eating it!!! Marraige/long term relationships are supposed to be reciprocal if one partner acts in a way that the other finds unacceptable surely something has to give?

No one can expect to be everything to another person but I think that many people don't want to be in relationships that are not monogamous and as sex is cerebral as well as physical moving beyond ones imagination (in terms of using porn) makes it real and therefore physical sex does not have to have taken place to make it feel like a betrayal.

To answer your question Simonhoward IMHO it is unacceptable because it 1. undermines the relationship laying some kind of inadequacy at the door of the woman 2. it objectifies women and 3. turns sex into something dirty and seedy (the secrecy aspect) which it is not.

[PamT]

Winnie1, I'm glad you share my views, I was beginning to think that I was naive, prudish etc and the odd one out.

SimonHoward, I thought you were too good to be true, being the helpful husband etc, I suppose it comes at a price though. In the long run it doesn't matter if DW is happy with your views and actions but it wouldn't suit me.

[Dreamer]

Right, SimonHoward, I'm going to generalise hugely now but...I think the difficulty a lot of women have with porn stems from some of the differences between men and women. What turns us on and what turns you on tend to be v.different things (hence the increase in 'made for women' porn).

What put me off porn (in my vast expereince of 1 film entitled 'Up,up and away' was the fact that it usually involved women doing things that, again in my experience, the probably wouldn't chose to do ordinarily and sometimes in a way that was quite abusive towards the woman.

Yet the blokes who watched it couldn't stand up for half an hour.

Dh knows that if he wants to get some action from me all he has to do is put a wet-shirted Mr Darcey on the video...much more erotic. Which kind of gets round for why I would be upset if I found dh having a sexy online chat. Because for me (and a lot of women, but not all) I have a romantic image of sex being bound with love and find it difficult to distinguish the two. Talking about it is such an intimate thing.

I don't mind him watching porn particularly (I don't think he does) beacuse it's more physical than emotional and I don't want it to be an issue in our house as I want ds to feel it's ok when I find his copy under his bed....

That's my rambling view

[SimonHoward]

PamT

I don't think you are any of those things.

DW was told by me from the start how I viewed things like porn and I asked her if she had a problem with it. Lucky for me she didn't.

I have have been chatted up by other women but it has never led any further, and it isn't from a lack of offers (and yes DW knows about them). I don't want to go further that way but there have been times when DW and I have been having problems and the offers sorely tempted me. I refrained though because DW is the one I love regardless of the troubles we have.

[SimonHoward]

Dreamer

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I have been trying to explain to most of my female friends for years that to the vast majority of men Sex and Love are 2 things and it they happen together then it is great.

If sex alone happens then that is fine.

And if love alone happens then that is ok (but we'd prefer if you had sex as well).

[Changed]

SimonHoward, I'm glad that DW is ok about things and that you can be honest and open with each other and I'm also pleased to hear that you knew when to draw a halt, that does make me feel happier. I just wish more men knew when to say no, many seem to be ruled by the contents of their pants. Its true what you say about sex and love being 2 different things for men whilst for a woman there usually has to be love to have sex. I learned all this the hard way because I was brought up by my single parent mum and I went looking for fatherly love as I got older. I had relationships with older men, married men etc and thought that sex was the way to find love. I was just used and ended up feeling very bad about myself and about sex, hence a lot of my current hangups and attitudes. DH is very understanding but does get frustrated sometimes, however, I do believe that he would never stray, even in a virtual way. I have changed my name to say all that because it is so personal and not something that I generally broadcast.

[PamT]

SimonHoward, glad that DW is ok about it.

[winnie1]

Call me old fashioned but I find the idea that only men distinguish sex from love as a poor excuse. Are we to believe that sex is purely biological for men? Hasn't this been used as an excuse for rape and other crimes against women for years? Women too can (and do) have sex without love (been there done that) but in a loving relationship part of the commitment is faithfulness... come good times and bad.

[SimonHoward]

Changed

DW was similar when she met me, she had always used sex to get love and then I offered love without sex (kinda shooting mself in the foot there).

As you say I do seem to be a rarity in that my brain and not any other bit controls me (unlike so many friends) and for that I am grateful.

Winnie1

I'm sure that there are a fair number of women out there that think that way but it is rare that a man thinks about it in any other way.

A question for you then Winnie, supposing one part of a couple decides or has decided for them that they will never have sex again would you condemn the other partner to a life of celibacy?

[PamT]

SimonHoward, I'm going to answer the question that you put to winnie1 here. I suppose the reality is that if it is a man who becomes celibate then the wife will abstain too but if the woman is forced to become celebate the man will either look elsewhere or find some other way of gaining satisfaction. I would hope that in a good relationship both partners would work together to sort this one out and maybe find a way of fulfilling their needs without actually having intercourse, however I do imagine that celibacy could and probably does cause a lot of problems in relationships where the couple are not as committed to each other.

[SimonHoward]

PamT

Thanks for the answer.

The main reason I asked was that a situation like that came up in a book I was reading and it got me thinking what if that happened to me or DW, how would we react.

I can't ask DW about it as she reacts badly to being asked to think about bad things that might happen (too many bad memories). Which is why I was concerned for her during her pregnancy as she could not even conceive of there being any problems with DD. As far as she was concerned DD was going to be healthy and that was it. Luckily she was and is currently making noises about breakfast being needed.

[PamT]

SimonHoward, that answer was only my opinion, it might not be the same for other people. Personally, sex isn't so important to me, its good when it happens but I don't crave it like some people do. If it wasn't available I probably wouldn't worry too much but I know DH would feel a little different about that if it was the other way round. However, yesterday he was with a friend who regualarly takes part in swapping parties etc and as DH is going to be working at his house soon, DH actually told me that he would run a mile if another woman made suggestions towards him. I suppose I'm just lucky to have a more faithful than average DH.

[winnie1]

Simonhoward, in answer to your question... I really don't think there should be a different response to such a situation from men or women. Personally, I would be devastated if my dh suddenly announced he was going to practice celibacy (not even remotely likely) and I know he would feel the same if I announced celibacy. I think that this situation would take alot of talking about and possibly some compromise depending on how important sex had been in that relationship. One cannot take a high moral ground from the position of deliberately denying ones partner sex. If celibacy is self inflicted (rather than due to illness) this may be as unnacceptable to one partner as wanking over internet porn is to another... the two people involved would have to come to an agreement that took into account each persons needs. The most important thing is that there is communication and understanding on both sides. I would argue that without the communication and possible compromise there is something rather flawed in the relationship anyway. However, having said all of that, I do find it odd that men SEEM (don't want to be accused of generalising) to need visual stimuli have they no imagination?

Confusedmum, sorry to highjack your thread. What are your thoughts on the responses here?

[confusedmum]

Thanks to everyone who has posted here. I did wonder whether Mumsnet was a suitable forum for this kind of question but obviously it is! Also, sorry SimonHoward if I have put you on the spot: as the only bloke posting here, you have come in for quite a bit of flack!!

I think (SH and others) that you are right about there often being a fundemental difference between the approaches men and women have towards sex. Its interesting that so many women who have posted here say that sex for them is bound up with love and romance. Personally, I do not find this: whilst I am much happier having sex within a loving marriage, I do not want to go to bed and be 'romanced'. The stability and love within a marriage simply gives me confidence to be totally uninhibited in the bedroom (something I would find v difficult if I did't completely trust a person or thought they would talk about the sex with their mates in the pub)

Maybe this gets back to my original post: the reason men use these chat rooms seems to be for a quick turn on with no inhibitions and to ability to remain annonymous. Still not entirely comfortable with the thought of D.H. into this but do not think this is in the same realm as an actual affair.