when is the class size too small?

[foreverastudent]

The local newspaper has printed the photos of all the p1 classes of the schools in the area.

DS's current state primary class has 21 pupils in it. So that's my reference point, if you like.

What has surprised me is the sizes of the classes in the private schools. The big, well known hothouse one has 2 classes of 25 pupils (so bigger than most of the state schools). Then there is a girls school with 1 class of 17, which sounds fine. But there are 2 small private schools (one is a prep) where they have only 10/12 pupils (mostly boys).

Would other parents be concerned about sending their child, especially a girl, to a school where there are only 4/5 others of the same sex to make friends with?

[Feenie]

21 is great! 25 okay, but not as good, obviously. Not as hard as 25+ (obviously!). Less tahn 18 would affect dynamics, I reckon.

[ragged]

They end up making friends across yr groups and in other classes, DS1 is in a class of 9 or 10.

[redflipflops]

We moved to the US last year and my DD joined a Kindergarten (ages 5-6) class of 10. IME this was too small and didn't allow enough diversity of personality types (for good friendships to develop etc..)

Basically there were 5 boys, 4 girls and DD. Two of the girls had been best buddies since birth, one was a bully (who stamped on DD's foot and said she didn't like her etc..) and one other girl. Luckily DD did eventually form a friendship with the last girl. BUT it made me realise that class sizes CAN be too small!

This year there are 20 children in her First Grade class and it's been a big improvement... she now has 3 friends

I think around 20 is a good number.

[stoatsrevenge]

24 is perfect because it has so many multiples for group work! It is a large enough number to ensure that most, if not all, children find friends to play with. It is also a number that allows the teacher to get to know each child individually.

I think very small classes would make it more tricky to find friends, and would make the children expect individual attention.

[Feenie]

Ooh yes! Have done a division lesson in the hall with a class of 24

[ForMashGetSmash]

My DD attends a tiny prep with ten in the average class...there are 5 girls this year but last year in DDs year one class there were only 3 including DD. It did worry me a bit...especially as in the year above there were only 2 girls!

However...this year two new girls and another boy joined DDs class and 5 girls is plenty.

It is also great as all the kids play with different year groups....the little ones in year 1 join in with my DD and her friends..and the older girls organise massive circle games with all the kids!

Another positive is that we Mothers ensure that each girl is included in playdates etc...they are only 6 and yong enough to get on in a group...when they are older they will choose their own friends more...but as it is we think it is lovely.

[stoatsrevenge]

Formash
The 6 year olds in my class choose their own friends - friendships are certainly not arranged by their mothers.

6 year olds don't naturally 'get on in a group'. They are testing and developing their social skills and need a certain amount of independence to do this.

Children can choose their friends within hours of arriving at a school, and usually the friends they choose will 'match' in some way (ability, interest, skill, etc). Most children are much more discerning and socially aware than you give them credit for.

[ForMashGetSmash]

Oh well Stoat...I must be a crap Mother or a liar then! I think I know my own child and her friends thanks! They all get on...they are all friends and they all play together...we as Mothers DO assist and encourage them in this and if you think that's rubbish then so be it,

[kiwijesta]

I only had 12 in my year group (small country school with only 60 kids) and loved it, got to know older/younger chn better.

[domesticsluttery]

There are 14 DC in DS1 and DS2's years and 16 in DD's. However they teach 2 years to a class, so the actual class sizes are bigger IYSWIM. In both of the boys' years there are only 3 other boys, but they all get on well so it isn't an issue.

[domesticsluttery]

Oh and I only had 5 in my year group at primary (even smaller rural school!)

[spanieleyes]

Our PAN is 15 but we rarely have that many entering in Reception, 9-10 is the norm. Last year we had one boy, the other girls spoilt him rotten! We were once down to 1 year 2 but by the time he reached yr 6 there were 16 in the year group, our intake is very fluid.

[mycomment]

1 in a year group spanieleyes! Did he get 121 tutoring all day then or did they just put him in with another class?

[mrz]

I don't think stoats is suggesting Formash is a liar or a bad mother (or has a chip on her shoulder) she is simply pointing out that the natural thing is for children to form their own friendships not have them arranged by their mothers. I admit to feeling slightly uneasy about the concept too.

[spanieleyes]

At the time we had a Reception/Year 1/Year 2 class of 17! ( Just about the worst year of my teaching career ) The other two classes had around 20 each. The school has grown since then, we now have 89 children in 4 classes but our Reception intake is still always below our PAN, we just have a lot of movement in during the year!

[Tippychoocks]

There will be 2 in my DD's year group and she will stay in the same classroom from reception to year 3, about 18 of them in total. They are split down into year groups to work. I am currently working in another school with a yeargroup of 5, all boys and very full-on, with one girl getting a little lost. IMHO of course.
I am interested to know what will happen when a yeargroup of 2 contains a more or less able child to a significant degree. Is the less/more able more likely to be left with the other, just because to move them into a more suitable group will leave the other alone? Or what if one of the children is inclined to bully or tease - they are very much thrown together.

[preghead]

My son's class has 16 which I feel is the minimum really, though can certainly see that 30 is way too many. I would be concerned if it went much lower but TBH he has made loads of friends (I invite whoever he asks for a playdate, within reason) and as others have said knows lots of children in other years. It worries me more that it is one form entry, I think 2 might be better, as there is less chance for sporting competitiveness etc and you get the odd kid who is slightly better at say running, singing whatever, and they win everything and get an unrealsistic sense of how good they are maybe, I wonder? Might be tough when they hit big secondary schools with more competition.

[mrz]

The difference in what you describe and what Formash described is that you can't have a wide range of friends if their is only a group of four to choose from (Formash's child + 4 others)

[AMumInScotland]

I think if they are spending all or nearly all of their time in their class of 10/12 then its quite a small number - but in most schools they won't be doing that, they'll be mixing up with the classes above and below them, and will play with other ages at breaks/lunch as well.

DS was in a year group of 8 - but in a composite class, so up to 25 in total in their class. They worked in ability groups for some things (like maths and spelling) but more mixed groups for other things. The ability groups often contained a mix from different years, and they even had mixed groups with other classes. So socially and academically, it can work so long as the school are imaginative and flexible about it.

[mrz]

Both my children attended a school with a PAN of 10 My son was in a year group of 12 and my daughter in a Year group of 10 but bother were in mixed age classes so had a much wider choice of friends in school.

[ForMashGetSmash]

Mrz but my DD is 6! How wide does her social circle need to be? As they all mix in with the years above and below them they have a wonderful choice of friends.
And children of 6 do need guidance....or it's very easy for one child to be left out. In our group for instance there is a child with some SN and we have all made bloody sure she gets fully included in any jaunts.There is another with tendancy to being bossy...she could easily take oer or get left out...but we ensure this des not happen and help the kids to learn strategies to help her.

It's called social education...teaching them to be open and friendly. Of course ...my DD has one girl she considers as a special friend...but that's not to the exclusion of others.

[mrz]

In our school of 250+ pupils children with SEN aren't left out and no one needs to engineer it ...