Instilling confidence and self esteem in a child

[melsy]

Dh and I were having a great conversation about this and using some of the tools from my therapist to help me deal with my past as a child. This is not an easy subject for me , so please excuse the way it is articulated.

As a child I feel I was not given the tools to correctly stand up for myself in times of bullying and harrasment.I feel this as I think my mother in particluar had been throught the same as a child , but was also never shown how to build self esteem. It was almost inevitable that I would as the 1st child pick up on the same behaviour as my mum got older I think she gained more confidence and so did each sister as they were born. Going forward with our children how do we teach them the fighting instinct,(metaphorically I mean and not physically fighting), in standing up for themselves?? How do we strike a balance between good healthy confidence and self esteem and the swing towards arrogannce and pompousness?? I suppose what Im saying is -- how do we make sure they have a different attitude towards potential bullies and not become another victim. Or likewise become a bully themselves. I know its a bit much may be to pontificate on when my dd is only 8mths old, but Its is something Im working on with therapy at the moment and its one of my worries. My dd is very much adored and loved and cherished and shown this , but my mum said that this is how I was brought up too, so what went wrong?? Im not saying every person bullied deserved it , I for one didnt, but how can the person on the receiving end deal with how they feel after in a more healthy way??

My dh felt there was a correllation between the kind of child happy to go to bed and settle well and feels secure in themsleves as to not want mummy and daddy with them at every waking moment. Im not sure about this , but is there something in it??

[jampot]

I've often wondered this too Melsy. I was the middle of three girls (well one is my twin but was always perceived baby of the family). As a child I was timid and scared of getting into trouble. I always had resspect for teachers and other authority figures. I guess because of being introvert I was never what you would class as popular but I just blended into the background. I was always top of the class which did put me aside from some of my peers as I got older but I think I always felt a bit different which I think helped me not to get picked on as I generally didn't care if I fitted in with the cool groups, I knew how I felt and didn't see the need to bow to peer pressure. I am also quite a stubborn character. During my first year at secondary school a girl a few years older than me tried to get me to give her my sweets, when I refused (!) she started bouncing a compass (the sort you draw circles with) in her hand presumably threatening me with a little stab from the pointy end. My sister (older) came along and advised me to hand over my sweets but I still refused to do it. She never did stick the compass in me and never bothered me again. My dd is very like me at this age and I have tried to instill into her the importance of not bowing to peer pressure and not to do anything unless she wants to. She seems to have the same streak of not giving a damn what others think (for now)!

[melsy]

So you were a little tuffy really !! and so is your dd -- fab. So we do learn from our parents behaviour then. The discussion nature or nurture Im sure will form part of this discussion at some point.

[melsy]

Im bumping this up as it may get more of a response this evening. Im sure there are some mums of older babs who have good experinces of this or have thoughts on it???

[Mirage]

Melsy I will be watching this with interest.

I definately do not want DD to go through the bullying that I suffered as a child.I am not sure what I can do to help her deal with it if it happens either.

Thankfully,although only 9 months old,she is a very stubborn, determined little girl & I have the feeling that she won't be one to get walked over or follow the herd.

I was bought up very well,was loved & knew it & was a very confident child until secondary school,so don't quite know where it all went wrong.Perhaps because I'd never come across deliberate spitefulness before,I had no way of knowing how to deal with it & it avalanched from there?

[zebra]

I was badly bullied in primary school and yjrdr things touch a nerve with me. I don't believe in your DH's theory, about trying to make them self-sufficient -- I think that trying to push them into self-sufficiency, including at bedtime, is more likely to give them the message that they can't rely on you to be there for them, and if anything, that will promote insecurity.

My background is different, too, in that I was victimised a lot by my big brothers as a small child, and my parents didn't even recognise or deal with that.

How did you parents deal with the bullying, Melsy? My parents gave me the message that it was my fault... that I was the one who wasn't trying hard enough to make friends. They said that they were "teased" in school, too, and it was no big deal. My parents had no grasp of how damaging it was to me. A cousin who lived with our family for many years has since told me, with the strong provisos of how much she loves my parents, that she also views them as 2 of the most self-centered people she's ever met. They didn't tune into their children's lives at all. She thinks that my parents could and should have done a lot more to protect me.

DH can come across as arrogant (it's what I thought of him for a long time), but he wasn't bullied in school (or a bully himself, I don't think). Frankly, I'd rather have an arrogant child than one that gets bullied, but as long as I teach them to be considerate of others, how to express their anger without being aggressive, and tell them constantly how wonderful they are and show them that I won't let them be bullied nor do I expect them to accept it -- well, that's all I can do for now. One thing I do if I break up a fight between DS and another child is tell both children off equally but mildly. Honest truth is, I'm glad that DS hits back, because I don't want to stifle that instinct entirely. Also, I'd be willing to home-educate if I had to, to avoid bullying.

[zebra]

Urk! "yjrdr" is supposed to read "these"!

[OldieMum]

I, too, would welcome any advice on this from parents of older children. You sound like me mirage - I was a confident little girl, but it all disappeared at secondary school. I have always found it hard not to be intimidated by bossy people. I have got better at hiding my lack of self confidence, but I am still overly-conformist with people who have authority over me. I am trying hard to make sure that dd (16 months) feels good about herself, by affirming every thing she does. However, I know that my parents did that for me and I wonder what else I can do.

[Ghosty]

Zebra ... I think that melsy's DH's theory is based on babies who are 'naturally' happy to settle on their own ... rather than those who are pushed into independence.
I say this because my DS was a very clingy baby, cried a lot, needed constant attention etc ... and I 'pushed' him into a routine etc (GF) and he is a sensitive, clingy, needy not that confident 4 year old and I fear for him when he starts school. He has never coped with change very well, and even at kindy he gets overwhelmed by the children who like to play rough and tumble games - it is only recently that he will play rough and tumble but he will only play those sorts of games with children he knows and trusts.
With my DD it is too early to tell ... she is nearly 17 weeks. But she is a very different personality to my DS - from day 1 she has never been clingy ... she rarely cries and has always settled herself and will happily lie and coo under her baby gym for ages.
Although she is so young still she clearly has more 'built in' confidence than her brother ...
I will be very interested to see how she develops ...
Very interesting thread Melsy ...

[melsy]

Either I didnt explain my dh's theory very well or may be its been interpreted the wrong way. We never intentioanlly leave her if shes upset or needs us , I pride myself on being a very warm,intuitive, benevolent and caring mummy. Even more so as I want her too build confidence and know she is cherished as I had mentioned before. This was not started to be opened up for attack, Im really going through some difficult stuff and was thinking about my dd's future.

DD just seems to feel quite happy to go to bed after milk and cuddles withought fuss, puts her head down sucks her teddy cuddly and goes to sleep. If she needs us and is hurt or really upset then we will go to her and soothe or cuddle , (if unwell ill hold her all night if she needs us I think my dh was just saying that may be it signalled a baby/personality who was secure and happy.

My parents I believe and remember were also very loving, but I think my dad had a problem in the early stages with a jealousy of me and wouldnt let my mum come to me sometimes. He was quite cold as a young man , as my mum says. He became more affectionate as I got older, Im not sure if thats affected me may be ??

[expatkat]

Have to say, zebra, I hate arrogance, & def wouldn't want arrogant kids. Just wouldn't want to live around it day in and day out or send my grown child out in the world thinking he was God's gift. There has to be some middle-ground to prevent bullying w/out breeding arrogance--if there is a way to prevent bullying at all.

Don't you all think the way a child is biologicallynot just the way he/she is raisedhas something to do with the child's tendancy to get bullied? Some kids are observers; some are participators. The observers are generally the targets. As are, sometimes, the kids who are cleverer. Same with the kids who are different in the slightest way at all--and eccentricity is sometimes just etched in the DNA.

My brother was bullied for being effeminate (he grew up to be gay). I assure you my parents could not have raised him in any alternate way in order to 1. change his sexual orientation (they tried!) or 2. prevent the fact that he was going to be teased for being different.

I mean: how much can a parent actually do--after a point? You raise a child who's happy and confident at home, but you can't guarantee your child will be accepted in the real world. I think your child just needs to know he/she can come home after school & get support from you. Which maybe wasn't the case for either of you, melsy or zebra. And being able to provide that support at home is IME, the best or even only thing that we as parents can do.

[zebra]

Don't worry, Melsy, I can't seem to say anything on MN without starting an argument, nowadays.

I'd rather have an arrogant child than one whose self-esteem was destroyed by bullies. Not that the trade off always exists, but I know which way I'd tilt the odds if I felt I had no other choice. Coming from a scruffy, egalitarian, anti-elitist, socialist upbringing the chances of me raising an arrogant child is pretty remote, mind...Even if I tried...!

Support when they get home isn't enough, Expatkat. I didn't get badly bullied until I changed schools at age 8. I only had one teacher who ever recognised the bullies' behaviour as excessive. I was lucky that I physically fought back so I didn't ever get beat up, but in a way that made it worse, because bullying seems to only get recognised as a physical-getting-beaten-up problem in the USA, whereas the psychological bullying I endured was devastating. My parents could have changed schools, but they probably took the attitude that any problems were solely mine ("genetic" as you say), and therefore would occur anywhere. Ignoring the fact that it hadn't happened at my previous school, or the possiblity that it would be less if I were given a fresh start elsewhere. The lack of recognition from teachers and my parents only served to reinforce the bullies' messages that I was the hopelessly inferior one.

I do clearly remember that the worse bullied kid in that school was also one tagged out as gay. I'm sure he was extremely damaged by the experience, too.

My niece finished 6th grade at the SAME F'ING school last year. Her mother was told by the Principal (head-teacher) that the teasing/bullying niece was experiencing was "a rite of passage". This level of ignorance is mind-numbing to me.

[zebra]

Sorry, Melsy, now I think I've hijacked your thread. Bullying issues obviously too sensitive for me. I'll try to be more constructive.

Unfortuately, as people on here testify they were very confident children who got bullied, anyway. But bolstering self-confidence doesn't have to mean promoting arrogance; we try to tell our children "Your clever and wonderful" and quite often other people are clever and wonderful, too; promoting my child's self-worth doesn't have to be at the expense of others. Isn't that mostly what the worst bullies are about, they're people who have to put down somebody else so as to feel good about themselves?

[expatkat]

Zebra, that's an interesting argument. To me, recognizing bullying (as opposed to denying it) & allowing your child to change schools go under the heading of "being supportive." It really is v. sad that you & yr niece's needs were ignored so blatantly.

But I guess what I'm saying is that being "different" is sort of universally maligned among schoolchildren. So what does one do about that? Do you school your child in conformity? Do you let them turn into a spoiled brat with a sense of entitlement? What happens when the values you instill in your children aren't enough to protect them from bullies? What if there isn't another school where they can go? I guess this goes back to Melsy's original question about what kind of people should we raise them to be, without making them into what they're not? I take your point that arrogance is better than a shattered self-worth, but even people with perfectly adequate self-worths get bullied--because they have a different name, or their hair is frizzy (I was called "Medusa!" ) or because they are just that little bit more bookish than everyone else. Is instilling confidence really going to be enough? I think that's a totally different question to the more practical ones you bring up: i.e. switching schools, etc.

[expatkat]

Zebra, my comments were referring to your first post. I didn't see your second post until after I posted my mine.

[expatkat]

Now I'm becoming obsessed with this topic. (My kids have gone off with dh so I can allegedly finish a deadline--and here I am.)

What doesn't work:

1. Telling your child to ignore bullying.
   I remember kids taunting me and I just stared straight ahead, pretending I didn't hear it. It just provided more ammunition for them to keep trying for a reaction!
   
2. Telling your child to fight back.
   Punching someone in the nose will just get your child deeper into trouble--with the bullies and the teachers.
   
   What probably does work:
   
3. If you're child is the quick-witted type, which I never was I suppose he can stand-up for himself by putting down the bully in some clever verbal way. But personallybeing disinclined to put people downI never knew what to say back.
   
4. Somehow teaching your child to dissociate himself from the bullying, to become psychologically removed from it. But that's very hard to do, admittedly. Probably takes years of training in Zen Buddhism
   
   Does anyone else have any other thoughts about what advice to kids does or doesn't work?
   
   Zebra, one reason I wound up over here in the UK was because the bullying was the impetus I needed to look outside my world. I think I've had a slighly more interesting life, as a result. Do you think anything positive at all came from the bullying you encountered?

[gothicmama]

Think best way is either be strong and ignore it or if physical fight back (respect goes along wway when young) I was bullied an dit stopped when I fought back - didnot get in trouble think teachers were probable relieved

[essbee]

Message withdrawn

[gothicmama]

That is good essbee my dd has started tolike preschool more since she has realised she can react to things adn not just accept what happens (she wouldn ot tell teacher about what was happenning)

[gothicmama]

Just a thought as parents we should let them know right from wrong and give them the tools to challenge things and protect themselves.

[Ladeeda]

I've found this thread really interesting. My brother was bullied at school and never really got over it until probably round about now -ish. He suffered years of dithering and self doubt and in his early twenties, clinical depression. I've no doubt at all that the experience he had at school contributed to his lack of self-esteem. Yet he was taught right from wrong, his cleverness, wit, positive qualities, good looks and talents were affirmed and he knew he was loved. And in his previous schools, he'd always been popular, respected and well-liked, so it wasn't necessarily something in him which attracted bullying. Because of what he went through, he spent his teenage years and early to mid twenties in some kind of psychological hell that I can't even begin to understand, as he tried to get to grips with what it was about him that attracted the lord of the flies behaviour to which he was subjected (fighting back didn't come into it - when eight teenage boys who don't particularly dislike you are kicking you all at the same time, the question is how to make sure your head gets protected so they don't put you in a coma) - at times, I know he was suicidal. I really don't know what to contribute that is positive, because it is such a difficult subject. But I think an understanding that it happens to normal people who are not basket cases is essential - I still get so angry when I read about teachers telling parents that their kids need to toughen up when they are bullied, when with all the so called education about this issue, teachers can still come out with the basic message that the victim is to blame, because it is easier to confront the victim than the perpetrator. I'm beginning to ramble a bit, but Gothicmama, it's a classic mistake to think we can give them the tools to challenge things and protect themselves - they need big guns back up, in the form of a school system which refuses to back the bullies and properly supports the bullied. And from what I see and hear, fifteen years after my brother was at school, we are nowhere near that. My brother was clever, confident, funny and popular when he started secondary school. It took only two terms to turn him into someone who would spend the next fifteen years working on reversing the damage his school did to him. And on the outside, it looked like he had all the tools to protect himself. Sorry, long post, but this has brought back a lot of memories...

[Chandra]

Sorry for not reading the full thread, not much time lately but I just wanted to mention that me and my husband were the target of schol bullies when we were young. Obviously we don't want the situation to repeat itself with our DS. We have been reading S. Biddulph's "The Secret of Happy Children" and we were really suprised of how is easy is to end up doing the same things as your parents but also about how easy is to avoid them. It's a great book, if it doesn't help at least you will find it very funny.

[tigermoth]

just skimed this thread and wanted to say a few things.

I was a shy child, bullied a bit a secondary school but also, luckily for me, very good at distancing myself from it. I have no nightmares about my school days. I had lots of friends and interests outside school.

Both my sons were born extroverts. Very confident, extremely outgoing toddlers. My dh is fairly sociable but I really don't think we did anything to instill this characteristic in our children when they were babies or toddlers. My sons are far more confident than I was at that age. My youngest's nursery reports picked out his confidence as his major attribute.

So far the youngest (nearly 5) has never been bullied at school. The oldest (age 10) has never suffered the attention of a bully in his class until this past year. He is not hugely traumatised by it as he has good friends and the school is supportive. But it is there and I have seen this little boy in action and what he does is cold blooded and not nice. I have seen the teacher twice about it as well. My son is so far coping ok especially as this other boy is getting punishment so my son feels there is justice being done.

He knows he has our support and the teachers' suppport, and that if he hit the boy back the once, we would suppport this as a last resort. I personally think though what helps as well is him being able to detatch himself from the situation, just as it helped me as a child.

It's not just about having friends and interests outside school, it's about realising this boy is not average boy and the situation is not acceptable. I think my son has a good grasp that not all boys his age are the same, have the same likes and want the same things. He knows that schools vary - he has been to several and we have visited several more that he will never go to.

I have always tried to show my sons lots of different people and places, some good some not so good, to help them look outside themselves. I have made a point of discussing the difference with them, the pros and the cons. The seem to like this. I have never thought about it really deeply, but thinking about it now, I think I am trying to give them a sense of detachment and the abiliity to look out of context. Something similar to confidence, perhaps, that they can draw on when they face the bad things life throws at them.

[tallulah]

Very interesting thread. I was bullied by my father & then at secondary school (verbal- never physical). I think under other circumstances I would have been an extrovert- I love "joining in" but my fear prevents me- as I was when I was very young. My parents wouldn't stand up for me, but I also didn't tell them anything that went on because they weren't approachable.

My mum admitted to me a few months ago for the first time that she was bullied at school & had few friends. If she'd told me that when I was 12 it might have helped!

My own children are very forthright & extrovert. 2 have been bullied by TEACHERS, which we have sorted out, & one of them went through a bullying phase himself which we nipped in the bud. He was also badly bullied in Y5 & 6 which culminated in his tormentor kicking a football into his face & smashing all his teeth in. (& how I wish we'd demanded an interview with the parents... we accepted the child's written apology & with hindsight I wish we hadn't as it was obviously not an accident).

The one I thought would be bullied is your typical geek- glasses, thin, odd-looking, BUT he doesn't ever bow to peer pressure & is the happiest one of the 4.

After this huge ramble I realise I've added nothing to the debate, except to say that just because YOU were bullied DOES NOT MEAN your child will be.

[mollipops]

Hi melsy

Bravo tallulah! My first thought too is that you must get past the fact you were bullied having an impact on your child. The only way that might happen is if you continue to focus on it as being an influence on your parenting her. You are a grown-up now, and even though scars remain, you are in therapy and working thru it. You sound like a very good mum, and it's great that your dh is willing to discuss this topic with you.

Second, I think many of the posts here reflect the importance of personality. A child is born with some characteristics - I know environment plays a huge role, but there are biological/genetic influences at work too. And you can work with them, rather than fighting them.

Third, to return to the topic of self-esteem. Amazingly, even by age 2, children start to get an idea of their own abilities, and their beliefs and attitudes about who they are and their own worth. Basically, children believe the judgements of adults around them about their worth and ability. Having reasonable expectations, being supportive, non-critical, displaying artwork etc, making sure they "overhear" you talk positively about them, giving encouragement rather than praise, (like, "Wow, you did that all by yourself" rather than "Good boy/girl" ). All this stuff means they learn to feel proud of themselves and their own efforts and makes them feel important and worthy of being noticed for doing something great or clever, not just when they are misbehaving!

High self-esteem does correlate with a child's confidence, resilience, and believing they can succeed at something new. Children with low self-esteem will be scared to try new things and feel they can't be successful, and are easily overwhelmed by stress. Maybe this is what your dh meant by being secure in themselves.

Sorry this has been long but it does strike a chord with me. I won't go into why, (or the post will just get alot longer!) but I hope this helps.

[papillon]

fyi if anyone is interested in this book:

Children Believe Everything You Say : Creating Self-Esteem with Children by Jennifer Day

abe books

Some of us have been talking about another of her books here