Mumsnet Talk

I had forgotten this:

"The literary woman, unsatisfied, agitated, desolate in heart and entrails, listening every minute with painful curiosity to the imperative which whispers from the depths of her organism "aut liberi aut libri [either children or books]."
—Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols

Ten years ago I would have turned the page with a sigh and a sneer.

Today...?

OBM, I have that dilemma everyday

Very close to the bone, that.....
Who are the childless female authors?

Not sure this is how Nietzsche intended it but to me that is about the dilemma between taking your children to the park, or plonking them in from the TV so you can read just one more chapter...

is it the idea that we have to choose to create just one of them, and whatever we choose that'll do, or that once we have one we don't have time for the other?

if it's the former, it's as patronising as hell

Oh I interpreted it as the choice between having children or carrying on with your literary life - writing, reading, living like you are in a novel...

yes just as Capp said
I don't find it patronising tbh
Because I find it hard to be creative now my mind is all child child child

I think you have hit it on the head, Capp, it's the creation aspect.

Prism, I think your interpretation is correct, my interpretation is somewhat facetious and from the perspective of a reader not a writer

It's not insurmountable, though. It's not an absolute choice.

you know I am always torn on this one

on the one hand I think it is shocking that women get the burden of childcare to the extent that they cannot explore their creativity to the full

on the other hand it makes me when women choose to define themselves through this dilemma

I recently discontinued my subscription to Mslexia and one of the least rational reasons for not wanting to read it was constantly reading the biographies provided by women who had had work accepted for publication in the magazine

they were all "Eloise writes stories in the morning before sorting out her family's socks and pottering in her garden"

there is no way that a man would write a biog which was so spineless and demonstrated so little commitment to being taken seriously as a writer

Except that raising children is an exceptionally creative endeavour... don't see the dilemma, personally.

are you trying to write a novel Anna?

No it is not an absolute choice, I know that (I write a bit, amateurishly). My brain is so full of "child" though, it's like living in a fog.
Yuk at the biogs. I always hate those little biogs that mention the children at all, so twee - I suppose though it's a way of saying "I work bloody hard and I want you to know it and be impressed that I can do this and bear the burden of childcare".

actually I think what Nietzsche failed to grasp is that women are biologically and intrinsically different from man and that one needs to look at a woman over her entire life to make a point like this

Our childbearing years, if devoted to children allow us to create and mould life itself .. we can devote ourselves to this or we can split our creativity into more erudite pursuits as well

Then we have the benefit of the menopause when our bodies rewire themselves to allow our creativity to shine through, which biologically occurs at the time of the 'empty nest' (although not, these days, in fact) allowing our ability to bring our experiences and creativity to bear

Nietzshe .. bolleaux

<claps>
Hooray for Twig!

I pour a lot of my creativity into mothering. But it isn't the same thing as writing, which generally requires space and quiet.

I don't think it's a choice between 'mothering and creativity'. It's a choice, at some points, between creativity through writing, and creativity through parenting.

Twig makes a good point

is Nietzsche falling into that old Jane Austen trap of thinking that women are only of any kind of interest when they are 'in their bloom'?

Nietzshe .. bolleaux

---------------------------

Quoted for truth. One of the funniest t-shirts I ever saw said

Nietzshe is dead.

Remember Nietzsche went as mad as a fish- not to discount his huge body of writings or anything...

I just find the constant grasping for the idea or the word that is just out of reach so demoralising.
I have a degree in English Language, I used to not need a thesaurus - now I cannot finish a thought without either ds needing my attention or some intrusive thought about ds needing my attention.

I get what you mean Pruni but I felt even less creative when I was working as a journalist because my head was wired differently - get facts, present clearly, move on

so I don't really think it's necessarily just about childcare, but maybe more about making a mental commitment which is hard if you do anything else, child-related or not?

I write for a living - not novels, but there is a strong creative element. I hadn't done any writing proper for three years when I started again (in November) but I am finding that being a mother and seeing things through the eyes of my child is a huge help to the creative part of my writing

well then Anna you are living proof that Nietzsche was talking out of his behind then surely

Yes perhaps capp.
No definitely.
God I once had the opportunity pre-ds to go abroad for two months, all paid for, while dh worked, and just write.
I so wish it had worked out. (He got ill just before we left so it was cancelled.....)