I got deleted so I'm posting this again - more crappy research.

[Jbr]

I read this in a newspaper. It's got to be the worst thing a so-called "expert" has ever said.

'When a child's mother dies, that is a terrible tragedy. But we impose that tragedy on every child when we leave them to go to work.'
Kathy Gyngell, Full-Time Mothers Association.

This woman should be banned.

[Scummymummy]

Jeez-oh! Methinks she's nuts, Jbr. Which newspaper did you see it in?

[Gracie]

But JBR, in other postings you appear to refuse to accept the validity of a woman choosing to stay at home full time with her children so personally I don't see this woman's dictatorial views as any worse than your own. Most of us just want freedom of choice on whether we work outsude the home or not instead of being condemned.

[Robinw]

message withdrawn

[Jbr]

It's worse because what I say comes from wanting equality; anything a man can have so can we, mothering doesn't entail something different to fathering. It's repressive to say we shouldn't work.

This woman is totally misogyist (spelling?). She is saying women shouldn't have jobs. It was in the Guardian by the way. As for being called "Full Time Mothers"...that doesn't need explaining what's wrong with that.

On her actual site, she has a diary by a 2 or 3 women about what they do during the day. The women who work aren't referred to by their jobs, they are labelled "part time mothers". The mother who didn't work spent 13 hours a day with her child and that is seen as "right" and basically that's all women are good for apparantly. My mum says I wasn't even awake 13 hours a day, so even though she didn't work she wasn't doing it "right" either!

[Lisav]

Jbr - if you think that most of this research stuff and the subsequent studies that follow are crap, why do you bother to relay them to the rest of us?

[Gracie]

But surely JBR it is just as repressive to insist that women do work outside the home?. In any case, this woman is a nobody. That quote dates back to 1999 and I have not seen her association taken seriously by any newspaper.

[Jbr]

It's still going, and it has up to date media things in it. There was an article in the Evening Standard (not available now) that began like this:

".... don't say it too loudly.... in the world where Cherie Booth is the role model of all those women too selfish to look after their own children, and who put their careers first.... Parents can't wait for their children to be old enough to have free child-minders, the so-called teachers."

But that's all I could get. At least it lays the "blame" on both parents though.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think money is everything but while it's there it should be shared equally. Why should men have more money than women? Why should men be "allowed" jobs and kids, yet we "aren't".

I think Cherie Booth is smashing incidently.

[Wornout]

On a slightly loose tendral to this thread. I had to back to work full-time after both my ds due to financial reason and hated it ever since (one is 21/2 yrs & One is 13mths)I have prayed for redundency ever since returning the 1st time, and God has smiled on me I was made redundent last week, but will work for another month yet to hand over. So I seem to be doing things in the reverse and feel slightly guilty for all those bra burning women in the 60's that fought for the very "right" that I so desepately want to give up. Having said all this I quite agree that it is a personal choice like breast feeding (or indeed Gina Ford raising)!
I do feel slightly miffed with dh though, as he was laughing when both ds started to moan & cry together, he said he would give me a month and I would wish for my old job back. He also added that he expected his dinner on the table and that he would not have to do a thing around the house, this better be a joke! Mind you I would not really notice if he did not help as he does so little at the moment anyway, and when he does he tells me and it makes me feel like patting him on the head.
Sorry this was so long winded, but it is off my chest now - funny old phrases really.
P.S. Why does this site not come with a spell checker I am quite worried about my spelling sometimes & would like to check so that I do not look like a complete dunce?

[Tech]

Hi Wornout, we deliberately turned off the spell-checking from the site to keep the message board simple to use. Having said that, we are hoping to improve the board later this autumn to let you do things like spell-checking, asking the board to send you mail when someone answers your message and so on. This should hopefully be ready sometime before the end of the year.

[Joe]

Jbr, Im quite happy to stay at home and be mum and will do any job so my son can come with me and not be looked after by somebody else. It sounds to me that you are just determined to be equal regardless of all around. BTW I have done 'a mans job' in the past in the form of a firefighter so do believe that a woman can do anything a man can, but I do believe a mums job is important and I wouldnt miss the early years for any 'mans job'.

[Jbr]

You forget, I only work occasional days now 24 a year to be precise, doing reports about transport; I took anything to get off the dole! Once everything is paid out I have roughly £60 to live on.

Being a parent is important but doesn't contain different duties according to the sex of the parent.

If I met someone again - with Jack's permission of course, he would have the final say!!, I would have to review it maybe and try for a better job, but then as I say it's roughly £170 a week for doing nothing so I don't know what I would do.

[Gumsy]

hello all. i'm only posting this message to join in the fight! incidently, isn't that why jbr relays the research for us - AND we fall for it. good luck to her!!. right then, back to the question, as already mentioned most of it is preaching to the converted. it is clear that the original view is extreme - and i love the comment about going to the toilet! that about sums it up. i work part time and get a fair bit of input from my ex. i sometimes think that because he's an ex. i actually get more input from him. i do feel like a wimp compared to my mum and her generation. it seems that quite a lot of the time they had little contribution from partners except financial and even then didn't get much dispsosable income from it and needed to take jobs to support the family.

what i find most interesting is the terminology. the media label us all for convenience but such is their power that we use the same terms. does a 'stay at home' mum stay in her pj's and watch daytime TV? (because that's what it sounds like) who isn't a full time mother?? what do these things mean!?

also, i've been thinking about 'having it all' and having nothing, about rejecting rights for which previous generations so bitterly fought. but surely it was rights they were after not compulsion. nobody would describe themself as pro-abortion, but as pro-choice. i think if we've taken the time to think about what is right for our families, then we're all doing a grand job and should be congratulated!!

ahhhhh, that's better.

[Petal]

Message withdrawn - tech

[Scummymummy]

Petal- your last post is nastier than anything I've seen Jbr write. I'm all for controversial debate but I don't think your message qualifies as anything other than personal insult.

[Croppy]

Jbr, speaking as someone who work 60+ hours a week to someone who work 24 days a year, I find it utterly extraordinary that you have such apparently anti-stay at home mother views!. As Gumsy says, it is all about choice. I have fought tooth and nail to get to the top of a man's profession and I believe equally strongly in a woman's right to stay at home and not be criticised for it if that's what she wants.

[Justiner]

Hang on a second Petal that last comment was a bit much wasn't it? Please take a look at the talk home page which explains the philosophy of mumsnet talk. The last thing we want to do is start removing postings but mumsnet isn't here as a forum for personal insults so please try and respect others opinions although by all means disagree with them. Thanks,
Justine, Carrie and Rachel

[Hedgehog]

Why should mums be made to feel guilty for working?

Surely it is a matter of choice and necessity?

Some of us have to, for whatever reason, but I don't see that this makes us worse parents. We all love our kids and do the best we can, surely that is what counts.

Until one truly understands the position of another person and why they made the choices they made, one is not in a position to judge. So there!!!!

[Crunchie]

I've just got to butt in here, What about the stay at home fathers??

Every bit of so called 'research' tells me that by working I am damaging my child, thry won't get as many A-levels or whatever etc etc. But what about those children who have their fathers as the prime carer??

Our family has me, who works full time (I've just gone back after no2), my husband who is an actor, so spends most of his time looking after the children (when he works we can afford childcare to cover) and 2 kids (2.5 and 6 months). What I want to know is because I go out to work, and my husband stays at home, are my kids going to get as many A-levels as if I stayed at home and he went to work?

No one ever has the answer to this one, they always talk about working mothers. I agree with the Pro-choice idea. If it were my choice I would have married a rich man so I could have stayed at home with my children. But I didn't, so I don't. But I love my job which takes the sting out of it. I don't have a choice because we would like a roof over our heads.

[Petal]

Humble apologies. Please remove my remark if that's possible. I temporarily saw red at the person concerned's remarks, not that that is any excuse.

[Jbr]

It's seems SAHDs are still "second best" because young children need "mothering"! Apart from breast feeding, there is no difference so that's tripe.

I just don't understand the dad going to work and not turning a hair and yet I've known women who go "I couldn't bare to leave him/her so I quit my job". Someone on another site (after I had mentioned a new report which was concerned with why only 4 in 10 women work) said we aren't biologically designed to be away from our kids! So if you don't want to spend literally every second of your life with them, you aren't a proper woman. And if we are "naturally" designed to spend time with our children, what about those who don't want them! They must be real freaks!

It's a bit extraordinary that even working from home is no "good" to these right wing organisations who think a woman's place is in the home or even working night shift isn't right according to them. So I infer from that, they are against us having money full stop.

[Minx]

Just adding to this. I'm always, well not always, amazed that when a women has a child she is invariably asked if she is coming back to work full-time and yet, I don't recall ever having heard a man being asked this question when he becomes a father.

[Crunchie]

JBR To be honest although I can see where you are coming from that does it really matter whether it's mum or dad who looks after the children, in our family neither of us really wanted to go out to work and leave them!!

However I do think that some women have that 'need' to be with their children, perhaps it's biological or perhaps it's society suggesting that you aren't a 'real' mother unless you have feelings like this. But those feelings whatever they are shouln't be dismissed lightly. Some women genuinely feel that it is their and their childrens best interests to stay at home with them when they are young. I have those feelings, but like I have already said I have to go out to work full time to ensure we can live.

My husband also loves to stay at home with his kids, he is very proud to be totally involved in their lives etc. However he freely admits in an ideal world he would prefer to be earning what I earn and let me stay at home with the children. That's not to say he doesn't want me to have my own money (he hasn't a clue and doesn't even know what the mortgage costs each month), but it is within his makeup and upbringing that traditionally men went out to work and women stayed at home. I have that same upbringing, so although we are unable to have that situation at least we agree we would prefer things like that.

I really don't think all this is a money issue, that staying at home is right for women since then they have no money. I think it is all about finding a balance, and I am sure that the women who fought for equality in the 60's and 70's would have hoped that equality would bring them the choice.

I worry more about business leaders who feel that they cannot employ women because maternity leave/pay/rights are so strict that they discriminate before a woman gets a job (subtely so it is not obviously sexist). Those reports about others at work who do not have kids who feel that they end up with extra stuff to do as they don't have to rush off for the kids in the evening, they cannot take holidays when they want since they have to 'allow' for the women with children to co-ordinate things first. These reports and stories depress me and worry me much more than a woman ranting off about working mothers being the source of all evil (or whatever she thinks we are).

What do you reckon to these stories of a backlash against women at work, by other women at work who do not have children??

[Hedgehog]

I would love to spend more time at home with my kids but I HAVE to work because, alas, Oh woe is me, I am doubly damned as I am also a single mum. As I don't get a penny from the X-hub and I am not eligible for social security in my country of residence, I have to work and make the best of it.

I don't see my children suffering as a result, on the contrary, as I have explained to them what life would be like if I were to stop working, i.e. poverty.

What I think is most important is for the children to feel loved and I don't think love is measured in the number of seconds in the day that you spend with your children. I think we ALL do our best for our children and I don't think anyone should criticise anybody else for their choices.

Sorry if I'm sounding dogmatic here but I am just sick to death of being told that I am damaging my children by working. What piffle! What other choice do I have? Perhaps someone should introduce me to an eligible millionaire!!!!