Dealing with French assistantes maternelles

[bunnyfrance]

Hi,
I'm looking for advice from people living in France and who have experience with nounous. DS, 8 months, has been with a nounou since the beginning of April. He seems very happy with her, but I'm not.

Her good points are: a good environment (kids in living room, not closed off in a separate room), lots of toys, does activities like going to the library, takes them outside a lot. So far, she's been reliable. All in all, DS is a happy chappie when I go and pick him up.

Bad points: she's not against giving little slaps (une petite tape) when DS "misbehaves" (how an 8-month old can misbehave is beyond me). She is also critical of me breastfeeding DS (he has EBM during the day) and wants to know when I'm going to wean him. She rolled her eyes at the ceiling when I gave her his milk this morning. Don't even talk about BLW - DS isn't allowed to touch the spoon. Basically, I don't have any rapport with her.

Shall I just let it wash over and put it down to cultural differences, or look elsewhere? It was hard to find her, there aren't many nounous around and the other options were worse.

[Weta]

I had an assistante maternelle for DS2 and she was great (and happy to take my EBM), although I think at the beginning there were a few things she found rather odd about me, like not wanting him to wear shoes until he started walking.

In your situation, I guess it's a question of weighing up the pros and cons (and the other options) and working out what is really important to you. For me a lot of it came down to having a happy child, but that can be difficult to gauge. The lack of rapport would worry me, but in my experience it takes time to build up, probably more with cultural differences at play. It's early days yet. I think at this point I'd try and lay down some ground rules/establish more of a rapport and see how it goes, especially if you think the other options are worse (though there's nothing to stop you looking round a bit more). I found it quite an awkward relationship to start with as you are going into somebody's home so you feel like a bit of an intruder and like it's all on their terms, and yet you are leaving your child with them.

For the breastfeeding, I don't know how long you plan to continue, but if you are stopping at a year then it will all be over in a few months and you'll be pleased you have a good nounou for your toddler. I would just remain calm and say 'I know it must seem strange, but in my country we don't normally/the doctors don't like us to wean them until they're a year so that's what I prefer to do' - just be really non-threatening and clear about it.

Using the spoon/BLW stuff I personally wouldn't worry about as you can do whatever you like at home. DS2 always came home remarkably clean so I'm sure his nounou spoon-fed him, but he's extremely independent and always insisted on feeding himself at home.

The 'petite tape' I would see as more of a problem - and I had the impression they weren't allowed to hit children. Might be worth checking that with your local PMI? While a genuinely 'petite' tape probably isn't the end of the world (and is generally considered quite acceptable in France), is it likely to become more intense as he gets older and into toddler tantrums and misbehaviour? What did you say when she told you this? and did you ask about her discipline methods now and in the future for an older child?

You might also want to consider putting him in a creche at 2 when they seem to thrive more on social contact (and their behaviour is more difficult to manage, but creches are more supervised and subject to tighter rules I think).

[flyingcloud]

Hi Bunny and Weta,

Just reading with interest. My DD has been with an assistant maternelle since she was 12 weeks old and while we have a great rapport I do stress enormously about leaving my LO in the care of someone else for so long. I mean how can I really know that she is doing a good job?! (DD gives her huge smiles and seems very happy but she is only 15 weeks now)

I had hoped to express but I ended up stopping BF a bit earlier. She had never had a mother give EBM but was delighted at the thought of it.

I don't know what the French for BLW is! And I am a bit scared to say it out loud in front of in-laws, am, paediatrician etc, in case I get sectioned.

The 'petit tape' would worry me too. I would perhaps ask her to discuss/note down with you the situations which require a 'petit tape' for an eight month old or what particular misdemeanours your lo is committing that deserve this!

[Weta]

flyingcloud I think the huge smiles are a really good indication. DS2 started at 5 months and it was increasingly easy to see that he was happy (after a while he would just sit and play on the floor, hardly wave me goodbye and not really want to go home when I arrived). I'm sure it will be easier for you too as your DD gets a bit bigger and more able to express herself.

Not into BLW myself (maybe because I had my first DS back in 2003 when no one mentioned it, and found finger food enough of a nightmare without adding to it!) so have no idea what it would be called. I'd just get on with it if you want to do it though, and not tell anyone I used to be quite wary of saying I was still breastfeeding after 9 months (did it to 15 months which was considered a bit weird, but actually the nounou and paediatrician were great about it).

[bunnyfrance]

Hi Weta and flyingcloud,

Thanks for your replies. Well, when she advised me to give him a petite tape, DS was biting me (he's going through a teething phase at the moment). To be honest, I was so taken aback and aghast, I didn't say anything! You know what it's like in a foreign language - it takes a few moments to register and then by the time you think of a reply, it's too late. Same thing when she tut tutted at my EBM.

So today at drop off and pick up I just said the minimum necessary and was very business-like. A bit sad really.

[jamaisjedors]

Hi,
It's really tough trying to deal with nounous I think although we have been very very lucky.

Unfortunately in France the "agrément" check-up is only on the security of the building, not on the activities etc.

I don't really understand why she rolled her eyes - is it because he's still having milk or because it's still YOUR milk?

Whichever it is v. annoying but unfortunately you will come up against quite a lot of silly comments/looks if you bf any longer (am still bf DS2 age 3 .

I don't think there's any point trying to address that.

I would address the "petite tape" thing, did she actually do it or was she suggesting YOU do it when he bit you?

I ask because DH does not smack (nor do I) but I find the French more pro-smacking and DH did give more than a petite tape ONCE when DS2 bit him hard (aged 2ish).

Could you say something like "Je préfère que vous lui donnez pas de petite tape, nous, on préfère lui dire un "non" ferme. Nous voulons pas qu'il croit que c'est permis de frapper les autres."?

[bunnyfrance]

She rolled her eyes because I'm still breastfeeding him. Surely it's easier for her just to warm the milk and give it to him rather than faff about measuring powder??!! But you're right, jamais, I'm just going to have to learn to keep quiet about it.

She was suggesting I give him a petite tape - I then interpreted this as meaning that she thinks it's OK and that she would do it herself. Maybe I'm reading too much into it? If it comes up again (which I'm sure it will as DS gets older and more boisterous), then I'll have a line ready, thanks!

As you say, flying, it's so so hard to leave them all day with a complete stranger and you have no idea what goes on.

[Bonsoir]

TBH, your assistante maternelle's behaviour sounds entirely standard for France and if your DC is happy with her and you have to leave your DC with someone during the day, you should probably just let it go.

Extended breastfeeding, BLW and avoiding all corporate punishment like the plague are not standard French parenting positions. Which is not to say you won't find French parents/nounous who do do those things - but they are few and far between. I breastfed for years, and I find it immensely bonding when I (freely) tell French mothers that I did and they admit (as if it were a guilty secret) that they breastfed for a long time too!

[bunnyfrance]

Well, it's all a moot point now as she resigned yesterday!!! She said DS is too much hard work - cries all the time, never sleeps, she has to carry him all the time etc etc. She'd never said DS was difficult before - this sudden change came about on Wednesday, when she learnt that I was still BFing him ( I think she thought the milk I was handing over was cow's milk!!!!) And she blames this difficult behaviour because of it. I'm "trop fusionnelle" with him. I find it hard to believe DS was unhappy - surely I would have noticed and/or she would have said something before?

Anyway, in a way I'm glad she made the decision for me, but on the other hand I'm in a real pickle as now I've got to find another nounou in a rush.

[Bonsoir]

Oh dear!

IME, French assistantes maternelles do expect children to live to quite a strict routine, just as crèches do.

Your DS may well not have been unhappy, because the assistante maternelle didn't want him to be - but she was obviously unhappy as she found him too much hard work. This is a huge cultural gap between British and French parenting!

[bunnyfrance]

The hard part for me is the guilt I'm feeling that maybe he really was unhappy and I didn't see it. It's so hard to know what really went on.

[Bonsoir]

Honestly, it sounds as if the assistante maternelle was taking care of your DS' English-type needs. But she found it too burdensome. So don't worry!

[bunnyfrance]

But I still don't see how DS would be more difficult than any other baby? Bottlefeeding or breastfeeding is surely besides the point?

[Bonsoir]

No, bunnyfrance.

You brought up your DS to be responded to according to his needs - breastfeeding is a much more responsive way of feeding than bottlefeeding; not punishing a baby (because they are too young to understand why) is much more responsive. Etc etc.

Your way is better parenting, undoubtedly, but makes for children who are much more work - and French assistantes maternelles, indeed French parents, cannot understand why you would do this because they are not child-focused but adult-focused.

[bunnyfrance]

Hmmm, this is going to be hard, bonsoir, if you say they're all like this! I thought I'd found some kind of balance between attachment parenting and the French way (for example we don't co-sleep, he has regular meals and naps, I don't feed him to sleep) but it doesn't seem to be enough

[Bonsoir]

You might need to reconcile yourself to the idea that your DS is going to be cared for less responsively than you would have liked and that, crucially, the assistante maternelle truly believes she is in the right and that nothing you say or do will convince her otherwise!

[Bonsoir]

Remember, too, that your DS will be going to school at age 3 and will spend the whole of maternelle as one child in a class of 30 with a single teacher! Children in France need to get used to little adult attention in an institutional setting.

[bunnyfrance]

How depressing, bonsoir! I've got a Waldorf jardin d'enfants lined up for him when he's 2, though I just need to get through the next year or so.

[Bonsoir]

And what are you going to do with him subsequently? What's the education game plan?

[bunnyfrance]

Well, the Waldorf school goes until the Bac...who'd have thought I'd be choosing schools already!

[Bonsoir]

Oh you have my sympathies, DD is only in Grande Section but I've got an educational game plan with several options all lined up!

I was asking because, if you want to pass on English values to your DS, you will have to work quite hard if he is in Frenc childcare and education.

[flyingcloud]

Oh God - you're scaring the hell out of me!

bunny - I am sorry to hear that it didn't go well, but as you say, the decision has been taken out of your hands and you were obviously worried enough to post here. It sounds like your DS was happy and having his needs attended to - as Bonsoir said, but the am just decided that those needs are too much work for her.

Bonsoir I agree with what you say about raising children being adult-focused rather than child-focused. When say English values - what do you mean? Very broad question I know, but with a 15 week old DD I am seeing a few big differences in child-rearing as it is. I get incredibly frustrated with how I am perceived in the family compared to DH's brother and wife and how they raise their child and - terribly judgy comment alert I get incredibly frustrated at how their child is constantly tired/can't sleep/minimal concentration etc because their approach is so different to ours and they don't do bedtimes etc, etc, whereas I am considered odd for putting my DD to bed when she is tired and not disturbing her, even when members of the family come to visit and want to play with her - so from this minor difference between raising small babies, how much more can we expect?!

Sorry for the hijack bunny!

[Bonsoir]

We've had quite a few threads on the differences between English and French parenting, I'm sure they are in Living Overseas.

And try reading a few modern mainstream French childcare manuals concurrently with a few modern mainstream English ones, and note the differences. But mostly you have to work it out as you go along!

[Weta]

bunny so sorry to hear this has happened (and I really hate the way that phrase "trop fusionnelle" is used whenever a mother has a more child-centred approach), but it is probably for the best if she was that opposed to your values. But don't feel guilty and worried that your DS was happy - as I said before, he wouldn't have been giving her big smiles if he was unhappy. Good luck with finding someone else! As I said, we had one who was absolutely great, so they do exist.

Your Waldorf place sounds like it will suit you better when he's 2, and it means you won't have to pack him off to school at 3. We had some very good (French) friends whose son went to Waldorf and then switched over to Grande Section with our son without too much trouble...

I think you can find a balance between your style and the French way, but it's pretty hard work! I sent DS1 to school only in the mornings for most of petite section (but had to make up my own work in the evenings), and gradually worked up to full-time by grande section. And I have to confess I was a bit relieved that we ended up leaving France before he got beyond the maternelle, although I had resigned myself to finding a way through it somehow.

Flyingcloud you will find lots of differences, and it is just a question of working through it. I always adopted the "I'm a foreigner, I know I'm weird, but this is how we do things in my country" approach (with family, childminder, creche, school etc) as it avoids being judgmental or appearing to criticise their way while still getting your own point across and arguing for what you want for your own child.

Bonsoir I agree totally with your take on this... and just wanted to say in relation to my thread a few days ago about DH and part-time v full-time work that we have since had a really good talk about it all (and the parenting styles) and a lovely night out and I'm feeling much more relaxed... and he has a job interview on Friday So although I didn't agree with some of your comments, thanks for making me think about different issues and work through them.

[AuldAlliance]

Bunny, sorry to hear about your bad experience.
DS1 and DS2 have both had really good nounous. DS2's in particular is ouststanding. They were happy to give EBM, would never dream of giving or suggesting a tape, big or small, and I had no complaints at all. I didn't do BLW, so can't comment about that.

What you describe may be common (though TBH I've never heard of it), but I don't think I'd go so far as to say it is standard.

Good, open-minded nounous do exist. You have to find them. Do you know any mums in your area who have the same approach as you and could recommend someone? Maybe through the jardin d'enfants?
One idea might be to look for a non-French nounou, if you feel that there are problematic cultural differences.
Trying to look on the bright side, now you know what kind of questions to ask when you are meeting prospective nounous for the first time...

[bunnyfrance]

Thanks for your messages of support everyone! I've been musing a lot over this and two contradictions spring to mind - one is that nounous and crèches like babies in a strict routine, but DS is the only baby I know of that actually is in a routine! People are surprised that he is in bed by 19h30 and that he has regular naps, in his cot!

The other is that, if they're all so adult-focussed, and apparently not particularly interested in their children's needs, how is it that France has the highest birthrate in Europe?

Anyway, now the search for a nounou is on, no luck yet but it is a long weekend. I don't know any mums in our village, we're quite isolated here. It was one of the issues I had when I was on parental leave for three months - no mother-baby groups, nothing, it was quite depressing. I got the impression new mothers all had their families living right next door (or in the same house), so didn't need contact with other mothers. Hence mumsnet for me