Moving from London to Hong Kong - Advice Needed!!!

[MDL]

Hi everyone,

We are potentially relocating to Hong Kong from SW London in a couple of months and I wondered if any of you had experience of living there, particularly with small children ( my girls have just turned 4). I am going out there next week for a few days to look around and figure out where to live etc. If anyone has any advice of good areas to live with children, what schools to look at, things to do with young kids or general advice about relocation I would really really appreciate it. Not sure where to start!!!

Thanks very much!

[MuffinTumMum]

Hi there. It's a daunting move but a fabulous one. We love HK. It is safe, family friendly, and truly mutil cultural. To be fair, you will live in a place where you can access school places for your children. That totally dictates everything. Unfortunately for you, reception is the most hotly contested school year. Check out all the esf schools, the lycee has an international stream, discovery bay international has a fab early years programme. Don't be disheartened by the lack of places. Most of the good kindys take on kids of school age in age appropriate classes whilst they are waiting for school places.this is very normal and don't be put off by it. The kellet school is also worth a look but bear in mind with international schools you would have to pay a debenture at this time to get children into reception in August 2012.
Areas to look at are mid levels ( urban) , Sai Kung ( less urban) pokfulam, discovery bay ( Lantau island, very child friendly). Wherever you choose in HK you will meet people and have a blast. It is very welcoming and inclusive. Good luck with your visit !!

[laptopwieldingharpy]

Hello!
HK is a great place to live once you pass the stress of getting a school place.

I think your priority right now might be to secure a place in a school.
Your best best option right now is the woodlands group of pre-schools that runs classes up to year 1.
They are also very oversubscribed but really you MUST call them to hedge your best as most other schools will have closed lists by now.

ESF run a common entrance for year 1, NOT reception. Applications for that are once a year and yours would be next set ember.
Their "captive" pre-schools such as hillside will be impossible to ge into at this stage.

The canadian school has just finished its big annual round of testing but will assess kids all year round for places on the wait lists.

The french lycée has a wait list well into the hundreds

Kellet would be a great option if your company already has debentures or can buy one as corporate debentures get better priority.

Don't be disheartened as said above but do hedge your bets and just apply everywhere.NOW!

good luck.

[laptopwieldingharpy]

just wanted to add that if you start them in a pre-school like woodlands or other, you must apply too for all other possible schools NOW and play the waiting game on the wait list

[MuffinTumMum]

Just to add to the above, Sunshine House is also a kindy that will provide for school age children. Not sure where they are located tho. We moved here mid year and were lucky to get an offer from an esf for a reception aged kid. Luck of the draw. Remover tho, you have to live in catchment area for esf schools. When we filled in the forms you had to nominate your preferred school which is difficult when you have yet to step foot in HK! But you can change that later on. Also esf school age I think runs like Australian schools. December to december. For me that meant one child going into same year and one going up a year from uk school. Again, you panic but schools are all set up to cater for this. As said above, it's first priority but don't panic, because unless you have 400,000$ + at your disposal, everybody who comes here is in the same boat. It will work out

[laptopwieldingharpy]

As far as I remember, ESF also run a parallel entrance for families relocating last minute.
They will usually offer an almost guaranteed place in kennedy school (great if you live in Pok Fu Lam) or quarry bay school.
Check there website, you can apply online for that.

[RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief]

On a boring conf call, so here goes

Just to clarify, there are basically 2 school systems open to you

• The international schools: there is one for pretty much every nationality, and although they usually give some preference to nationals, most are open to everyone, and they usually have a fairly high proportion of local students as well. Where it gets confusing is that they all operate their waiting lists in different ways (some are selective, some arent), and it isnt always very transparent. Debenture holders and siblings get priority. They also take the children at different ages and have different cut off dates but most run a reception year, so children start in the September after they turn 4. Best bet is to look on their websites/email them. Off the top of my head, the ones on the island are the french, Kellett (British), Canadian, German-Swiss, HKIS (American), Hong Kong Academy (for now- moving to new Territories in 2013). Australian school has a good reputation but is on Kowloon side.
  

• ESF. A HK peculiarity but possibly your best bet! Set up after the 1997 handover to provide English medium education at less than international school prices, these are fee paying schools but cheaper than the international schools as they get a government subsidy. Class sizes are larger. Some British parents say that they are comparable to a "very good british state primary". These dont have wait lists. You apply in the September before your child is due to start and they start in the September of the calendar year in which they turn 5 (the cut off is 31 Dec). Therefore you would apply this September for September 2013. There are several and they operate on a catchment system so you apply to the one where you live (can stay there if you subsequently move though). They give priority to children who dont speak cantonese but there are still not enough places. Bradbury seems to be the worst in terms of over-subscription, so if possible try to avoid that catchment.
  

-In the meantime, as has been mentioned above, there are several pre-schools- Woodland and Sunshine house being the larger ones- that plug the gap and try to alleviate the shortfall of reception places.

• It's worth mentioning that you are entitled to put your girls in a government school (Cantonese medium). However, this is very unusual amongst expats, especially short stay ones.
  

In terms of where to live, there are many possibilities, highly dependent on budget and preferences. The island is the most expaty, with expats mainly clustered in mid-levels, Happy Valley, Pok Fu Lam and the Southside (Repulse Bay through to Stanley/Tai Tam- Chung Hom Kok is a nice "cheaper" bit of the south side). Off the island "Discovery bay" on Lantau island is popular with families, as are Clearwater bay and Sai Kung in the New Territories. Once you go off HK Island, you get much more for your money but it's more rural/ longer commute into central. On the island, unless you can afford more than HK$90k per month in rent, you're most likely going to be in an apartment

In terms of apartments, you need to decide between the colonial style blocks (apartments tend to be larger but no facilities) or the newer apartment complexes (eg Bamboo Grove, Bel-Air, Park view, The Repulse Bay, the Manhattan, Pacific View) which have smaller appts but on site facilities such as pools, children's playrooms.

Considerations re this include if you're working and if you'll have a club. I work and we dont have a club, so we chose to live in an apartment complex to have access to a pool/indoor playroom and as it's far easier for my helper to have all the facilities right there, and to be able to sort out playdates etc within the complex.

HTH

[SeoraeMaeul]

I think schools are pretty covered here ... and anyway the whole process makes me so mad, I'm better steering clear of it

Just some other things to think of as you look around - you don't say more about where you live apart from SW London, I was a Clapham girl before moving elsewhere in Asia and then coming here. So bear in mind apartment living is different to houses, you could be shocked by the size and lack of storage and of course lack of outdoor personal space, the flip side is that the weather here means you'll be outdoor a lot - great beaches, hiking (even for wee ones) and the islands.
But this is also why the point Richmanpoorman makes is important - we are in Bel Air - its one of a few huge estates over here. For us it was a great first stop because so much is on your doorstep, pools, playgrounds, thousands of other kids etc. However it was tough to get my head round living in such an environment (think holiday resort but with more flats!) longer term we will move elsewhere, but it did make the first few months very easy and both the kids and I have made lots of friends as a result.
Also some of the blocks have quite poor bathrooms and kitchens - and landlords dont' really care, avacado green is still fashionable! I remember on my looksee I was horrified at the state of some of them, but equally that may not bother others.
Check out bus routes and local shops - in the summer you will not want to be walking around lugging your shopping. You may get a car but its worth bearing in mind alternatives - of course taxis are numerous and pretty cheap by london standards
And finally most places will have a helpers room - most families have someone who lives in and helps out with housework and the kids. First time movers to Asia can find this a bit difficult to get their head round (especially as the helper rooms are very small). Don't worry about it at the moment you'll decide what you want to do regards one later, but its worth being aware of it before you start looking at apartments.

Good luck and come back with questions - the MNetters have been great and really helpful to me in my first 6 months, so whatever your question one of us should be able to help

[laptopwieldingharpy]

Very good point made above re:communal living vs low rise/colonial blocks

We have been in Parkview since moving here and it was a lifesaver as I work from home and travel a week/month.
Having all facilities and sports on site was a life saver for me.

We are now moving in a 8 apartment low rise block because we need way more space. We will keep our membership at park view though as it is much cheaper that the bigger clubs.
Its worth knowing that if your company does not provide you with a club membership within your relocation package, park view and the repulse bay offer non resident memberships at much lower prices. Maybe Bel-Air too?
So you can opt for a bigger older block within reach of the above and still have facilities round the corner.

good websites to look for property are:
squarefoot.com.hk
hongkonghomes
landscope

[RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief]

One more thing- the square footages shown on property websites are complete and utter bollocks and bear no resemblance to UK square feet at all. They include all sorts when calculating it (like your carparking space and share of common facilities) and so the apartments are actually far smaller than you would think from the quoted size.

[laptopwieldingharpy]

OP did we scare you off yet?

Its really really nice living here.

[RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief]

Oh crap, did I overdo it??

Second what Laptop says. It is a really great place to live. The initial orientation can be a little challenging, but it is really friendly and great for children. We love it here.

[MDL]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post a response. I am a bit overwhelmed by the whole school thing! We live in Wandsworth at the moment and the girls have just got into a really good school so I thought this was all behind me!

Just to clarify my action plan, I should basically call every international school and kindergarden to beg for 2 places for Sept but with regards to ESF schools, they don't accept applications until Sept 2012 as they start there a year later - is that right? If so, that also means I have to know where we want to live as soon as we arrive as we can't really move once the application goes in. A bit of extra pressure to get our first move right then!

Thanks for the club info - I hadn't thought of that. I won't be working so it would be great to have somewhere to hang out and meet people - another thing to add to my list.

Thanks for all your advice - if you think of anything else please post it!

[RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief]

Basically, yes, they typically start ESF later because although the "school year" starts in September for most schools, the cut off for the school year is usually 31 August for most of the international schools but 31 December for ESF.

The easiest thing to do is call admissions in every international school and just talk to them, and then keep calling them until they give you a place just to make you go away!! Be aware that kellett (British school) will have two campuses from September 2014. You may get further with them if you're prepared for your DD's to go to the Kowloon campus (the new one).

re the clubs, unless you get club membership as part of your package or you or DH are a sporting legend, the wait lists for the private clubs (yacht club, cricket club, football club) are long. However, it's totally not an issue IMO. Loads of expats dont have clubs these days and you'll meet people who do and can tag along with them. As Laptop mentioned, some of the residential complexes have them and otherwise many of the hotels also do non-resident packages. Many apartment blocks have some sort of pool also.

btw- I am also from Wandsworth- I used to live down the side of Waitrose in balham

[MuffinTumMum]

Hey, not read all the above posts but you can apply to esf if you are non resident at any time. But bear in mind for every application there will be a fee associated. It is a hugely frustrating process. Seriously, do it with a glass of wine and a smile because the whole international educational thing here is a farce ( albeit schools are great!) for new comers.
Also, if you are coming this week, pack a brolly and a lightweight Mac. . It's a bit rainy!!

[SeoraeMaeul]

:) at the rain and indeed thunder and lightening - my two wee kids are caught in and with no coats after I relaxed due to the wonderful sunshine over the weekend. Oops!

The wine and smile is very important with the admissions process - it is a nightmare. But also remember the international schools don't care where you live - they'll happily take your money. So get your DH to check with his company if they have a Debenture (basically a lump of money paid to the school to give priority on the waiting list to employee's kids). It can take quite a bit of time and money - everyone charges a fee to get on the list - but I've rarely come across someone who doesn't get a place - even if not in September for reception then during the year, its a very tranisant place. And really none of the schools are "bad" in the way we'd describe one in the UK.

As some of the people on this thread know -- I really didn't like it when I first came but even I've been converted!

[MuffinTumMum]

Seorae, very true about debentures. Our company wanted us to move in 8 weeks from talking about it to being here. I dug my heels in and said no school places no move. It took 6 weeks of careful negotiation and a alot of rose but we got there. For the OP if the company you are moving with is international then they need to understand the nature of the beast. And in HK that's the $$$$ through and through!!!
I love HK and all the more as we are considering a job offer in shanghai . Gutted
Keep the questions rolling op!

[SeoraeMaeul]

MuffinTumMum - not to derail a thread but two sets of my old expat friends from Seoul moved to Shanghai in the summer and are loving it. If you do go and need introductions let me know.

[MuffinTumMum]

Thanks seorae, very thoughtful of you. will pm you. Glad to hear they are settled.
You see MDL, these expat tai tais are not a bad crowd

[TheWoodiesinHongKong]

Hi MDL,
Just to add one final thought to all this great advice, if you do decide to live in Sai Kung (great family area, beaches, country parks, kids activities etc), we do have very good local schools here. The teaching medium is Cantonese but non-Cantonese speaking kids and families are very welcome and the teachers speak very good English. Our daugher started at Lok Yuk last year aged 4 yrs and one year later is speaking, writing and understanding lots of Cantonese. And she loves it. I was slightly concerned her English reading and writing might 'fall behind' but that's not the case as there is a huge emphasis on English as well as Mandarin language skills. The Sai Kung Primary School also has an international stream, one of only a handful of local schools offering this.

Quite a few expat families send their kids to Lok Yuk for a couple of years whilst sorting out places at ESF/International schools.

Life in HK is great, even if a bit wet this morning!

[laptopwieldingharpy]

highjack alert
Anyone been shopping to Shenzhen yet?
Going on a whim tomorrow morning (or I'll end up never going!) and need your best addresses for furniture and home decor please!
I want a bargain of course but good quality pieces.
TIA!

[Mummysaysno]

Hi, just saw this thread. School school school - yes, I'll leave that - London schools are a mare, but IMO at least the chances of getting a place are somewhat transparent based on academic ability/wait lists. Here, it is a whole other world, but don't fret, there is always a lot of movement, and there are other options to the main names... Harbour school doesn't get caught up in the frenzy, and HKA and IMS have a waiting pool rather than list, so you may get fished out earlier...
Only you will know if you prefer mid-levels to south of the island, or somewhere inbetween like Bel Air... three years ago I would have preferred mid-levels, when my kids were babies/littlees, now they're aged 7,5,4 I prefer the space/beaches of the south, but it is a real personal choice. I would say be honest with yourself about how you spend your days in London, what is important to you, and as much as possible find somewhere where you can recreate that slightly.
I love the safety here. I love the lack of attitude that I had just come to accept living in sawf London - the kids can run ahead without worrying what will happen. To me this is priceless. I don't like living in a smaller space, but it is what it is. I think the weather here is totally bonkers - we seem to get hot, hotter, thunder, rain, cold... makes life interesting!
Enjoy your visit!

[MDL]

Hello again - just wondering if anyone could answer another question? We had a call with a relocation person today who said that our only option for the girls for Sept was a kindergarden (Woodland or Sunshine). She then went on to say that most would only have an afternoon place available. I thought that the purpose of these older kindergarden classes was to plug the gap for oversubscribed reception and p1 and so the places would be full time, same as school? Thanks for any responses!

[SeoraeMaeul]

Can I just say - love hong long, HATE the school system
Unfortunately you just have to call every school and pay to get on waiting lists - and you probably need to do it this week. It's painful (probably your relocation person doesn't want to do it!) and expensive - I shudder to think of the amount of money people spend on registrations. There is always movement at the end of school years - our school reckons it could be up to 20% every year. And remember everyone is registered at multiple schools but can only physically attend one, so reception year is very chaotic!
As for woodlands or wherever - they also get very full but again call them and ask about full days, usually they do full days as a 'stop gap' - I've also heard of the Harbour School acting as a landing place before kids move onto other school (or stay if they settle well)
But honestly the only way you'll know is by calling each school individually -sorry.

[SeoraeMaeul]

Hong long - wonder where that is!

[laptopwieldingharpy]

Good Luck MDL.
Just dig your heels in and harass all the schools.
It is extremely likely that unless you use the overseas application to ESF, you will have no place other than the woodlands or sunshine.
Just take it and then be prepared to re-assess if/when something else opens up last minute.

You will only hear from ESF re: overseas application scheme (for which you will have to pay a hefty premium - see their website) at the very last minute.
They called us on the 20th August to start on the 28th.

Remember that 80% of the kids at woodlands and sunshine end up with a place in the "best" schools so you could not choose better if you where looking for the best "feeder" prep.

It is expected that a lot of people are moving this year. A bit more than usual.
However you are contending in a year group where the demand has never been so high and with people like us already long established on the wait lists.
But as Sorae said above, we will only take one place in the end and open up another 3 or 4 in other schools.

I think nobody here mentioned the german swiss school with International stream. Its a very traditional (translate quite rigid) school but with a very good academic reputation. They often have place when no one else does.
You could consider it as a good stop gap or stay if you like it.( One of my kids thrives on being regimented).

As for the Harbour, I have only good things to say from personal experience.
Its a very "different" school. Its academically very good as whilst some kids have SN, others in the same class are academically way ahead of their peers. With 2 teacher and 1 assistant for a max of 15 pupils, this is tailor made tuition.
Its a very progressive ethos at the opposite spectrum of the german swiss with a lot of scope for children to learn self motivation etc...

Appart from these 2, I think most school are quite the same.
Don't believe the hype about this or that being "the" school.