Family court - child proceedings

[philosowatzit]

Dear all,

Please may I have some help and advice regarding a contact application to see two children, ages 3 and 5 by their father. Daughter alleged SA (hope you understand that, but can't say too much as proceedings still ongoing) There has been no contact for 3 years. He has PR for daughter, but not son. Judge denied PR at last directions hearing and name change for son. Basically, not enough evidence, or proof, and expert psych, on father side, didn't believe daughter. Trying for PAS. SW, expert paed (since capitulated on reading psych report, and now it appears CAFCASS officer believe daughter, however, no findings were made. CAFCASS lovely lady said she can't disagree with findings because it would be comtempt of court??? Is that true? Daughter said she didn't want to 'see him' when visited by CAFCASS, Indirect contact has been recommended, not sure about 'ordered' to start with, Daughter said she doesn't even want to see that. A family assitance order has been put in place.

What exactly is that? will it help applicant or daughter? Back to court early next year. Barrister advised me (legally aided) that I have to 'come on board' or risk loosing the children due to emotioal harm. Will that happen?

Of course I have accepted that recommendation, if not, will I be in comtempt of court? Can I disagree with it?

Will daughter really be listened to if indirect contact doesn't go well? Are the two planned sessions just to see her reacion? Should I rock the boat by asking the CAFCASS lady to say what she really thinks to the court, or just keep my mouth shut and see what happens?

Thanks you in advance for any advice

[Collaborate]

I really think that you ought to be asking your legal representatives these questions. Understandably your OP is rather disjointed, and it's a little difficult to ascertain your precise situation, but the one thing that struck me above all else was your saying that a 2 year old child alleged sexual abuse. Hard to see how a 2 year old could elucidate that.

[philosowatzit]

Well I haven't actually had a meeting with this solicitor yet, I guess what I wanted was to know roughly, prior to any meeting, am I getting good avice? It's nigh on impossible it seems to get an appointment with this new solicitor! Obviously I can't contact the barrister. I'm left with all these questions whilst waiting, possibly over Christmas....I can understand though, if no one wants to help. Sorry about it being disjointed, but there has been so much happened. And she was 2.5, very coherent, verbally well beyond her years, gave a very positive statement of SA, can't publish it obviously, had other indicators, including physical, certain sexualised behaviours, witnessed by SW's and others. oh, and things said my his family. I agree with you though Collaborate, I'm only going on what she said, how she behaved, and I'm just trying to protect my children.

[philosowatzit]

Oh, and I believe her, we are told by the media, (in my case GP) to report things like this, but when you do, it appears you are in the wrong. Everyone tends to steer clear of subjects like this, which I can also fully understand, it's not very nice being stuck in the middle of a situation like this, believe me, I wish I wasn't.

Maybe I'm not even allowed to be asking questions to a 'community of family solicitors and barristers' as advised?? If the questions I am asking are inappropriate, someone please tell me, I don't want to bug my solicitor for an appointment, he's a busy man, all I want are some answers :(

Sorry again, if it's disjointed, or I appear brusque, I just want to talk about it, to understand, to make sense of it all, I'm just a Mum, and I want the best for my kids.

[mumblechum1]

Well, the purpose of a Family Assistance Order is for Cafcass to try to help both parents to move forward. That doesn't necessarily mean direct contact, and I'd be extremely surprised if it led to unsupervised contact in the short term.

The difficulty is that it appears that a previous hearing, which I presume was a fact finding hearing, that the court did not find that the allegations against the father were true, for lack of evidence. If my understanding about the nature of the hearing is correct, then you can't keep alleging sexual abuse historically, as it's already been dealt with and found not to be proved.

That being the case, the court normally does expect a child to be allowed to have a relationship with the absent parent. The child's wishes and feelings are taken into account, but depending on the age of the child, and their understanding of the proceedings, those wishes and feelings may not have priority.

I suspect that the Family Assistance Order, if made, will aim to work with you and the father to try initially indirect contact, eg letters, photos etc, and then to tentatively try direct contact at a contact centre for a couple of hours twice a month. The contact centre will either supervise or support contact, ie the staff there may not keep an eagle eye on contact unless their remit is supervised contact. Once supervised/supported contact at the contact centre has gone on for six months or so, you'll all go back to court, and the cafcass officer who will have been monitoring how contact is going, meeting with both of you from time to time, will report back to the court on how it's going and whether it is appropriate to move on to direct, unsupervised contact or not.

Your barrister sounds a bit heavyhanded regarding the chance of you losing the children due to emotional harm, but of course I may be wrong, I don't know anything about your case other than what you've posted. Occasionally a mother is so unreasonably opposed to a perfectly decent dad having contact that her attitude does emotionally damage the child - I have one at the moment like that. In those circs, it is open to the Judge to order a change of residence. It's very unusual, but your barrister is right that you have to engage with the process and not be seen to be unreasonably standing in the way of your daughter having a positive relationship with her father.

[MOSagain]

My first thought was the same as Collaborate

[philosowatzit]

ok, thank you for explaining that. I must admit I am having trouble with the fact that there was evidence, but it seems to have been dismissed. How much evidence do they need? If several people think that it happened and have said as much, how can the courts disagree. Is there a tick box system or something? Dauaghter remembers nothing at this stage, so there is no way she is emotionally damaged, nor will she be, it is not talked about. Is it really possible that her wishes will be ignored? Can they physically force her to a contact centre? What happens if she just won't go and I am engaging in the process, accepting of the judgement, and trying my best?

[philosowatzit]

Sorry MOSagain if my message is confusing, but I can't go in to too much detail. I would never stand in the way of a positive relationship with a decent father, never, even if we had issues, in fact I have gone out of my way to facilitate contact before all this. However Barrister said there are 'doubts' about the whole thing, after reading the judgement. So how can I possibly be standing in the way of a relationship between them, when even they can't say for sure if she will be safe. What am I supposed to do? Someone please tell me....

[philosowatzit]

If possible could someone answer the question about the CAFCASS officer, ie if she thinks she has been abused, and doesn't agree with the findings, is she allowed to say anything, and should I be pushing her to say something? thanks you

[philosowatzit]

Oh dear, reading more threads on here, it seems I am fighting a loosing battle. Thanks very much to all you women who lie about abuse and DV, it leaves the legal people jaded and those of us with real problems left open to further abuse because the 'system' is sceptical and disbelieving, and I don't blame them. I've got no chance of protecting me and my children in all reality have I?

[cestlavielife]

You say daughter now remembers nothing.

So it maybe likely that as was said supervised contact is ordered.

There is supervised and recorded contact with reports going back to cafcass and there is just contact centre with supervision.

If they suggest contact centre make sure to ask for supervised and recorded /monitored so you can be sure she is safe.
This could go on for say six months by which time she older and able to tell you more about what is going on should unsupervised be ordered.

Contact centre wil be monitoring how dd is around the visits.
You need to be careful to show you doing everything positive.

If a judge has effectively ruled against the allegations then I think you need to just insist on properly supervised contact put the onus on cafcas to assess whether he safe or not. Apart from the allegation perhaps you have other evidence of why contact should be supervised?

[philosowatzit]

Yes she remembers nothing, but does have significant fears, can't live a normal life because of them. Oh yes, got other evidence, but will they even consider it? There is no way I'm going within a mile of him after the death threats (verbal of course) just thankful he doesn't know where we live!

[cestlavielife]

Get everything recorded and in writing eg threats

[philosowatzit]

Have given it all the court, they've disregarded it.

[cestlavielife]

i wonder why they disreguard?

eg is it because he presents as upstanding member of community, talks well, good job etc? does he present as someone that people would say "oh no he would never do that..." ?

has he presented in court / to CAFCASS as very plausible and maybe you come across as emotional etc (understandably) ?

is it all his word against yours?

can you think of ways to make sure you taken just as seriously?

[philosowatzit]

I believe the judge has now retired..... I only got emotional once, the last hearing, and ex even admitted one of the assaults in the social worker reports, handed in to court, but then denied it again in another statement. I just don't understand how they haven't picked it up. I wasn't represented at fact find, and unable to attend, but believed the judge would pick up on all the discrepancies if it went ahead. Unfortunately it did, they didn't adjourn. I can appeal, but barrister said it would go against me.....

[mumblechum1]

tbh, you have shot yourself in the foot by not attending the fact finding. I'm not surprised your allegations were not upheld.

[philosowatzit]

I don;t know what CAFCASS make of him yet, but he's ususally the emotional one, but CAFCASS lady said to me she believed my daughter but can't speak up about it.... What am I supposed to do about that???

[cestlavielife]

you cant do anything about what cafcass can or should do
.
you can only do things you can do.

the rest is out of your hands


make sure you attend all and every court hearing etc.

be very calm.

put forward facts.

accept that contact is likely but insist on contact centre for now.

[philosowatzit]

mumblechum, I know, there were reasons, and the court will accept a further statement as to why I could not attend, it may sway them to hear it again, and I have been given leave to appeal. However, I was foolish, ignorant of the process, not in receipt of the best legal advice, and tbh paralysed with fear. Legal aid will be stopped soon, but it would have been so helpful if some kind of assitance was available to support people through this process, or at least give people some kind of advice how the 'system' works if your legal team aren't telling you, and give emotional support. A one stop shop or something where the advisors have personal experience. Maybe there is something like that, but I certainly haven't heard of it. ho hum.

[yummymumsie]

Why on earth do these things have to be dealt with by courts? Surely it would be better for children if they were dealt with by professionals in the medical profession who actually speak to the children! In my experience the courts ignore doctors, health visitors, camhs and anyone else who might actually be trained in helping children. For goodness sake look after our children and protect them from harm. How many baby p's do we need to have before our children are protected from abusers. Just because the court couldn't prove it didn't mean it didn't happen, they seem more interested in protecting the abusers. Good luck to you op x

[Pantofino]

Blimey - that is a lot for one 5yo to deal with!

[philosowatzit]

Yep, she can't even be referred to speak to a counsellor because she is a 'subject' in proceedings :-(

[philosowatzit]

Thank you yummymumsie, I agree, we are at their mercy, and there is nothing I can do about it.

[yummymumsie]

I'm fuming, my children are in a mess. Their doctor is seriously concerned but he knows his hands are tied. Please someone in power see sense and stop our children from suffering. My children went to bed terrified again about contact with their abuser tomorrow morning. The courts ordered it, our HV, doctor and camhs worker have stated the children are suffering because of contact but are powerless to do anything about it. Court turn a blind eye to it. How can it be??? How can this little girl be subjected to this, even if it can't be proved, why can caution not be taken, this is serious. This country fails our children badly. Solicitors can say what they like but they sell their conscience for money, sorry.

[philosowatzit]

OMG is this what she's got to look forward to? I feel so helpless, so impotent, so utterly gobsmacked, but I know I've got to rein in those thoughts and put a brave face on it for the judge, just in case he thinks I'm emotional. [sceptical]