Just don't know where to turn - at a complete loss and need help

[goshgosh]

sorry this is long but i am so upset at being in tears in meetings that i have to get it out.

My ds1 is 6 and has always been described from Nursery onwards as 'exceptionally bright.' WHen he started foundation year at school I was called in on a number of occasions for his disruptive behaviour and truculent attitude, which astonished me initially as i have never thought or see him as a 'problem' child or one to have 'behavioural problems' iyswim. His teacher would tell me he was very very bright and it was 'just his behaviour that is letting him down'.
This followed through to year 1 where his teacher told me in her 40 years ecperience in teaching, he is 'one of the brightest chlldren she has ever taught', but by year 2 (the same teacher) is saying he is also the 'only child she has never been able to get through to' with regards his behaviour. Again it was related to me by her that 'he is potentially capable of acheivieng anything/is such a highly intelliegent boy/' followed by 'gifted'. Feeling that his teacher was indeed doing her best but was getting nowhere with him i arranged to see the deputy head and Senco regarding him. I reiterated that his teacher whom, i feel must have good experience having been in teaching for 40 odd years, has repeatedly told me he exceptionally bright etc etc and could his 'brightness' (was loathe to use any terms which might be perceived as pretentious parent thinking their child is the bees knees) could be somethingto do with his behaviour problems. Senco was very flippent regarding this and brought to my attention an incident where ds1 got angry in football at not being in his chosen team and kicked a bench and stroppoed off saying 'well that was nothing to do with intelligence was it?' which i had to agree with at the time, but since reading various information on bright/gifted children, i can also see the point of view that if he is feeling frustrated/bored etc in class then surely this can potentionally carry on or spill over into PE? So anyway, she suggested an IEP and i requested a meeting with the Ed Psyche. Got the IEP which was a waste of paper to be quite frank. ANy 'strategies' in dealing with his frustrations/anger/attitude to work were ones which, in my opion sould have been common sense and implemented ayway and as for the 'strategies implemented by parents '; well, they were things we as parents and a family follow anyway! I told the senco this and she said 'yes yes, i expect you do, its just a basic things that i kept in their for you ' said in a very 'kind' yet slightly patronising manner iyswim.

A week later it is decided that ds1 will not be referred to the Ed Psyche as 'his behaviour has been a bot better hasn't it?' I insist i want to see the Ed Psyche as he has had this behavioural problem since foundation so i doubt its going to suddenly stop now and express hos i feel they are treating the symptoms with the IEP and not looking into the underlying casue of his attitude. Oh forgot to mention it was suggested i take him to the Dr, which horrified me as he has no problems at home other than normal 6 year old behaviour that evevry parent i have spoken to deals with iyswim. But i took him to Dr who was in turn horrified, took one look at ds1 and could see thathad he a real 'rpoblem' that needed medicating then i would have been banging on his door i n tears a lot sooner than at 6 years. Dr said push for Ed Psyche with school and if they mentioned or suggested that i neeed to have him seen by his GP (by which they were inferring medication for ADHD i presume) then he would call the school and tell them that this was absolutely not necissary and not the path to go down etc etc.

SO i finally get my meeting with Ed Psche (just for me to discuss things with her as they are still not referring Ds1 as dont think he needs it etc) meeting was a joke. WHen talking about strategies to deal with his behaviour, it was I that was telling the Ed Psyche things and she was saying 'hmmm, that would be a good idea, yes, write that down and mention that t his teacher' I came out feeling i shold be invoicing her for the hour i spent giving her ideas!'

SO another parents meeting with his teacher yesterday and no surprise, we still have the same problems. Basically, the work he does do is excellent but a lot of the time he refuses point black to do work which he thinks he will not be able to complete to his high standards (at home we have always said your best is good enough but he is such a prefectionist) His reading has always been of a high level. He basically learnt to read in a couple of weeks - one week he was starting the next he was rushing ahead at a rate of knots. He refuses to take home the books at school unless they are information books (which his teacher allows him as she knows what he is reading at home as is aware of his thisrt for knowledge which she says is incredible) He is reading the anthony Horowitz 'Alex Rider' collection having read all the Famous Fives and Secret Sevens. He loves spys and all that and after reading a few Horrible Henrys found then a bit boring. He queries everything and in foundation would get frustrated when he wanted to talk to his teacher about 'where life began' and she told him 'we are doing shapes today'. SO basically at age 4 he was asking me 'where did the first human come from Mummy? you need a dmummy and a daddy to make a baby so where did they come from?' I explained about evolution and the ape theory but that didnt answer his quastions 'but where did the first ape come from' 'if all life started from the sea, where did the first tiny creature come from'. He gets very frustrated when talking to a boy at school who is a christian, as Ds1 questions 'how do you know god exists? WHy dont you believe in Buddha?' I tell him to be respectful of others beliefs and he says he is but he just wants to understand why some people believe one thing and others something different.

Basically, when i looked up about 'exceptionally bright' and 'gifted' children' on the web including NAGTC site, I sobbed so much as they described my son like they knew him. WIth him being my first i had nothing to compare him to but as his brother is 2 years younger i can now see that so much he did from such a young age was 'exceptional'. I am crying while writing this now as I feel i dont know where to turn. Disruptive behaviour appears to be something 'gifted' children can show, and although i have his teacher telling me how exceptionally bright he is and throwing terms like gifted at me, I feel that his school foes not want to deal with it or use this is a rason behind his behaviour problems. His teacher has told me that although she see's his ability and potential, his behaviur is pulling him down and he will ot do well in SATS etc if he continues to refuse to complete work as she has limited work to show the moderator. I feel i have shown that i want to help my son, but feel the school is failing me and that i am in turn failing my son.

I am not using his 'brightness' as an excuse for his behviour. I want to help him not be so hard on himself, not to have such high expectations of himself and to enjoy his life. Yet at the moment, if the subject is not on that interests him, is not one where he see's the point in it, is so easy for him that he does a bit and gets fed up or the other end of the scale where he assess it and starts it and thinks he will not be able to do it easily or to his very high perfect standards then he refuses to continue. SO many things have come so easily to him ie reading that when he is faced with something that he has to think about and 'try' a bit harder to do, he tells me his 'brain doesn't work that way'. I have told him most children have to try hard at many things and he is lucky that he finds most things so easy, but in maths (which his teacher says he has NO problems with ) often he refuses point blank to do the work as he doesn't see the point/brain doesn't work that way.

Sorry, i have gone on and on but i am so upset and dont know where to turn. WHere do I stand? What can i do to help my son?

[PrincessPeaHead]

well it sounds to me rather as though he is in the wrong school. or at least, as though the people in the school who SHOULD be recognising that he is bright and his behaviour is probably borne of frustration, are not.
I think it might be worth going to talk to the head teachers of other local primary schools, and just say "I'm thinking of moving him, because these are the issues we have faced, if he was in your school what would you be doing differently". With any luck, you might find someone who you click with and who will do better by your son, because frankly the place he is at is failing him at the moment.

I don't know what your financial situation is like, but if you have got a spare £200 or so, you could go and see a GOOD ed psych privately, get him fully tested and a decent 8 page or so report on him. This will tell you his intelligence, how he thinks and learns, what needs to be done to support and stretch him etc. This is something that you SHOULDN'T have to pay for, because your school should be referring him, but if you can afford it you may decide that it is worthwhile. You could also then take the report to the other heads and they can see what they would be taking on, and know that you weren't just a mother with a disruptive child who was trying to explain it away by saying he was bright, IYSWIM.

I don't know if this is any help, I'm just thinking aloud really.

[goshgosh]

oh god, i am so sorry that is solong. I dint know where to start.

Forgot to add that other parents have told me that the school in reluctant to acknowledge children with needs above and beyond t=whatthey provide as they dont get any extra funding and have to finance anything themselves etc!?

[PrincessPeaHead]

It is crap, isn't it.
THe trouble it is sounds as though the head is no good, and that runs all the way down. And the trouble is this isn't just one "thing" you need fixed, yuo need good support and a plan for the rest of his primary career, and it doesn't sound like you are going to get it at that school.
Are there other primaries around you would consider goint to look at?

[frogs]

Okaaay. I think there are several issues here wrapped up in each other.

Firstly, his behaviour 'problems' don't sound that unlike lots of 6yo boys in terms of not always co-operating. And if he finds the work very easy, it does seem very likely that his boredom and frustration will make his behaviour worse. The perfectionist thing is not that unusual with bright under-demanded kids they get so used to being able to do everything straight away that they never develop strategies for dealing with tasks that they can't immediately complete perfectly. We had this v. badly with dd1 it peaked at about 6-7, after which it gradually improved. You can help by gently encouraging him to take up and persevere with things that don't come naturally to him -- with dd1 it was swimming, and playing the flute, neither or which she is outstandingly talented at, but she gradually learnt that it was okay not to be brilliant at everything and that if she worked hard at it she could achieve reasonably well.

The attitude of the school is a separate issue. IME schools don't tend to like really able children their idea of an able child is a bright motivated co-operative child, and they tend to be a bit wrong-footed by children who are genuinely left-field with their ideas and thoughts. You can get an independent Ed Psych's report, though it's not cheap we used a place in London that I can recommend -- at least that way you know they're working for you rather than working to the school's or the LEA's agenda. You can then use your Ed Psych's report as a starting point for discussions with the school, although in the end they may not be prepared to change their thinking.

Do you have other schools available to you? Or even private schools? It is a difficult nut to crack, but the good news is 6 or 7 is probably the worst age -- dd1 sort of grew into herself over the following few years, and at secondary school the educational options do widen considerably.

[goshgosh]

THank you so much for reading all that and replying!

We have thought about getting him privately tested but i think i have to admit that i am afraid people will think i am being pretentious about his abilities and am using it as an excuse. Sort of like 'well my son is so bright and that is whyhe behaves disruptively at school' which is not at all how i really think. I just want to help my son. I cant understand why, after all the info i have read on gifted children tells me one thing, his school don 't make the connection that his ability just may very well be something to do with his behaviour at school. They say he has issues with authority but he certainly does not have issues with the authority of his parents at home! He is not a naughty boy iyswim apart from at school. At home he loves to write and complete his own little projects but atschool where he is not doing things he is interested in all day, the problems start.

I feel so emotional about it all now, so bashed and battered from all the pushing for meeting etc. I thought they would be happy to have a parent who wants to help, wants to make changes etc but they just want him to quiet down at school and not look for the cause iyswim.

I will ask my GP for a referral to an Ed Psyche. I guess that is the next step?

[frogs]

The school will be getting funding for so-called 'G&T' but (a) it will only be a max of an hour a week, so doesn't really solve the problem of the daily classroom grind and (b) G&T is defined quite widely, and still won't meet the needs of a child who is really out on a limb educationally.

And not all schools use the G&T money for its intended purpose dd1's primary instituted a really imaginative G&T program (Y5 doing Hamlet, working on MC Escher in maths dd1 loved it) for the 6 weeks before Ofsted came in, and then axed it the week after. Grrr.

It is a real problem, though you may get some sniffy responses on here. We're now out the other side, with dd1 happily ensconced in Y7 of a grammar school, but with hindsight, I should have moved her at Y3 and gone private. We didn't really have the money, but I wish I could have found a way.

We paid northwards of £300 for the Ed Psych's assessment btw, but was worth it to know that I wasn't going crazy and wasn't a deluded pushy mother as the school were making out.

[frogs]

If you're going privately you don't need a referral. If you're near London, I can strongly recommend Child Consultants, round the back of John Lewis in W1 -- I know several other people who have used them for a range of issues, and they're lovely.

[willowcatkin]

You say you have been on the NAGTC site - have you sought their help.

My Dc's are not exceptional, although very bright, so i have not needed their help, but i have read a lot of good things about how they helped in meetings with school etc and set up strategies to cope.

Otherwise, i agree, try and move him to a different school - there are charities which can help with fees I think (Sutton Trust?) if private is the best option for him.

I also like the idea of finding something unusual to him so he learns to work, and how about something differnt inthe evening eg Cubs, so he does something different which may help his curiosity.

IMHO most teachers cannot cope with exceptional kids becasue they are relatively rare so they brush the issues under the carpet and focus on problems ...

Good luck

[goshgosh]

With regards his behaviour not being unlike other 6 year old boys - would you believe when i told the deputy head and senco that he is good at home etc she quationed me regards this 'what does he do if he cant get his own way/what about if you tell him to do womething and he is busy doing something else?' i said 'well yes, he might have a bit of a strop if he was engrossed in something else and he might on accasion stomp up hi his room or he might shout and get upset and sulk, and sometimes he fights with his 4 year old brother, but its not all the time and not to the degree i am being told he is doing this at school.' 'Ahh.' she replied. 'well you just told me he is well behaved at home and you dont have a problem, but you have just told me in answering my quation that actually you DO have a problem with him.'

I mean wtf???? ALl my friends with 6 years old sometimes have issues like that. WOuld it not be almost abnormal for a boy of 6 to never hav a strop or get upset? SHe made me feel like was iwas making excuses for him. I am a struct parent. I dont have a child who is a nightmare to live with, who is consistantly disrespectful to his elders. That IS quite normal behaviour isnt it? She sees to think that unless he is an angel in every sense of the word at home than he is a problem child!

I also agree with the attitude of the school. I feel that they think a child who questions things, who takes in books that are above the level he should be looking at etc is just being difficult. He took in a book about evolution and asked to read some out to his class. He was told not to read the section he had bookmarked as that's 'not what we are learning.' He was so upset as he wanted to read it and then discuss it with everyone. It excited him and he thought it was so amazing that everyone should want to learn it!

Other primaries are a possibility, although from what i have heard from other parents its all very hit and miss and i am worried about the upheavel. HIs teacher tld me yesterday she just now hopes he will 'grow out of it' before he gets to middle school. Maybe as Froggs suggested this is the pinnicle and things will improve? At middle school they are streamed so maybe that will help.

[bluejelly]

Sorry you are going through this. Must be really hard.
Just to say that my dd was also asking a lot of questions about evolution/dinosaurs etc from an early age. And her reading is way ahead of everyone else in her class.
And she is a bit of a perfectionist who tears up her work if she makes one tiny mistake
I think this is quite standard for bright kids that age ( she is 6)
And she also used to hate her homework with a passion.
Things have got better in the last month though, I am trying to teach her not to be so worried about getting things perfectly right all the time. I think it's a bit of a trait of eldest children/only children.
Anyway this is probably not v helpful but just wanted to say I can recognise some of the symptoms!

PS you don't sound like a pushy mother who is trying to mask bad behaviour by telling everyone your child is a genius!

[frogs]

Gosh get a good assessment, and take it from there. The school sound just like ours tbh all we met was denial that there was any kind of a problem at school, and endless meetings where the head patronised us about how we should be supporting our child at home. Which was completely not the issue -- the problem was the 6.5 hours a day she was spending in school.

It got better in someways as she got older she was more confident in herself, and less anxious and faffy. But she became much more stroppy and downright argumentative with the teachers she had an amazing talent for rubbing teachers up the wrong way, correcting their mistakes in public and pretty much keeping up a running commentary of wisecracks. Weak/inexperienced teachers in particular really cannot deal with this, and she spent most of Y5 standing outside the classroom door. A great deal depends on the individual teacher -- we had years which were tolerable and years where she and we were at outright war with the school. But if there is no will at management level to take his issues seriously, then things probably won't change that much.

Is there any way you could go private? Lots of private schools have an intake at Y3, but if he's in Y2 now you would need to look into it fairly swiftly. I know it's not a politically correct solution, but I think it's probably the most likely to be productive, and I wish we'd done (been able to do) it. Private schools have an interest in nurturing their high-flyers in a way that primary schools simply don't -- a reasonably bright child will get Level 4 in Y6 even if left to their own devices, so there's no incentive for the schools to go beyond that.

[throckenholt]

At home he loves to write and complete his own little projects but atschool where he is not doing things he is interested in all day, the problems start.

This does not address the underlying issue - but it may help to make life more livable in the meantime.

Try and make a deal with DS that he tries to do everything asked of him at school, and accept some will be very easy, and some very hard, and some even a bit boring - and then when he is home he gets some reward if he manages to do as he is asked at school. You choose the reward between you - maybe a treat, maybe letting him choose his activities at home.

Talk to him about it not being an option being at school, and how it will be better for him and the others in the class if he tries to knuckle down and do as he is asked. Talk to him about not always getting what he wants (eg the team thing). And also explain that the teacher does not always have the luxury to sit down and talk to him about his ideas - she has to deal with all the other kids as well - but he can still think his own thoughts and ideas - may write them down, or draw them.

[goshgosh]

willowcatkin - i am trying to pluck up the courage to phone the NAGTC help line without bursting into tears! I feel so pent up with emotion over the last few weeks.

Bluejelly - thank you. I do know what you mean. I have alwats erred on the side of caution as i am not really sure where the line between 'just' very bright and 'gifted' lies. I have alwys said to people 'he may not be 'exceptionally bright' he night just be 'very bright' but i feel that as information tells me this can be a symptom of children who are exceptioanlly bright or gifted, i just want to get a proper answer so i can approach his problems from that angle if needs be or look elsewhere for the cause of his disrutiveness iyswim. AT the moment i feel i am in no mans land. I do of course always wonder of i have done somethng terribly wrong in my parenting and it's me that has made him like this HIs brother is very different so i think 'well i can't be that bad if ds2 is well behaved at school, can I?

[goshgosh]

thank you throckeholt. Those are things we have done in the past. I explained to him that he has to learn all the things the other children learn and if he knows it already then just to sit and do his best and what the teacher asks and when he gets home we will go on the computer together and look at websites he is interested in learning more about, we will go to the library and get al the information books he wants etc etc and we do but it just hasn't helped that much tbh. I have told him his teacher cant sit with him alone all day and its unfair when he disrupts the class, but little gets through to him. He might be good for a day or 2 and then it flares up again.

[bluejelly]

Sure you haven't done anything terribly wrong gosh!
Or even vaguely wrong!
Kids are sent to challenge us sometimes.
My sneaking suspicion is that he will get better over time, as he learns to adapt his expectations and behaviour to the classroom's. I have noticed a significant difference in my dd's compliance and attitude in the last month, and haven't done anything differently ( i don't think) but I have definitely noticed she has gone up another 'notch' in terms of maturity.
Don't lose heart, it will be resolved I'm sure.

[ruslara]

I feel for you desperately! I completely recognise everything you've said - I too have a DD who rips up work with one tiny mistake in it, can't sit still, has outgrown reading matter at school, (which, incidentally, I've just been told is not going to get any better as they are "capping" the level that Year 2's can achieve!) I also have worried myself sick over the past year about her, but I have to say, thing are starting to settle down 9I think!) She's 6, Year 2). I def think you should go with your own Ed Psych, anf investigate other schools. I haven't got anything else useful to add - I agree with previous comments about schools being ill-equipped to deal with this, but I wanted to show my sympathy. Good Luck and keep us informed!

[bluejelly]

It's interesting your dd has recently turned a corner too ruslara.
NB Personally I am of the opinion that it doesn't do a child any harm to have to conform to classroom and behavioural norms ever if it means they are not stretched as much as they could be.
My dd is definitely top of her class but I don't feel that does her any harm at all-- being in a very competitive environment where everyone is super bright would probably just present a whole different and possibly more trying set of circumstances.

[goshgosh]

thank you ruslara. It is so stressful. I was asked 'are you sure the books he is reading are suitable?' I said 'well, i actually came to you and asked you that a month ago!' I was concerned he was missing out a stage iyswim but he reads them well and although aimed at older children are not full of sex and gore!!! And he still reads his comics when he wants anyway.

[goshgosh]

I agree Bluejelly. I have told ds1 thatis doesnt matter how clever he is, he has to learn to behave and accept that he has to behave appropriately in certain situatons otherwise he will never get a job as a secret agent ;) I try and use Alex Rider as a comparison as he is ds1's hero atm

[clumsymum]

goshgosh

I don't have a lot of time right now, but just wanted to say that I have read your opening post, and you have described my son and the problem he has at school EXACTLY.

We are just being referred to the Ed Psych, and I'm not expecting a lot, frankly.

I have suggested to his teacher that he needs more 'intellectual challenge', as he settles down much more when he is interested in something, rather than doing something he finds really easy. She says they can't move him on work wise until his behaviour improves, I think his behaviour will improve if they move him on, so it's catch 22.

Must go to meeting. Will watch this thread with interest.

[ruslara]

I've just been sitting here and thinking about you while slugging my coffee, (DS off school with dramatic snots today, so me sitting here in front of PC!) I really think you should ring the NAGTC help line. I think you'll be relieved that they know what you're talking about, and can point you in the right direction. A great deal of the info about the behaviour patterns of exceptional children comes from them! They'll also know how you should handle the school.

[throckenholt]

I guess it is a habit he and you have to try and establish - so maybe immediate rewards for each "good" day - gradually reducing over time to for each "good" week.

And think of ways to deal with the frustration of not doing something perfectly (I think my DS tends to that as well). Maybe try and get him to use his brightness to work out why what he just did was not perfect and what he can do to improve it - try and get him to see it as a challenge. That is one of the hardest things to do - but probably one of the most valuable.

Try at home (and maybe ask the teacher to as well), really praise the trying bit - and not the "that's brilliant" response - so things like - that was really good to sit there and keep trying when I could see you were frustrated with it.

[Berries]

Gosh, you could be describing my dd2. She has always been a 'difficult' child, never seen the point in doing anything she didn't want to and is amazingly good at pretending she couldn't do things. She has also got into terrible strops if things don't go her way. By that, I don't mean just not winning things (although that is a problem) but if she couldn't do a piece of work to her standard she would rather not do it at all iyswim.
She also had issues with her peers which resulted in being intermittently bullied for a number of years so there were a lot of 'issues' related to her schooling.
In year 2 her teacher said of sats ' she'll either get a 1 or a 3, depending on whether she feels like it on the day' so they knew she was capable of much more.
Because she wouldn't put effort into areas she didn't like (in her case it was the literacy side, extremely talented in maths/science) she was never given any extension work in the areas she did like. ie if she finished her maths early she was told to go away and read, rather than given more challenging maths work.
It culminated in yr 3/4. At the end of yr3 she achieved the highest CAT score the school had had in 6 years. At October parents evening, yr4, we were told her behaviour was poor, she was being disruptive and disrespectful in class. When we asked whether this meant that she wasn't getting her work done we were told that her work was always fine, however a suggestion that perhaps she needed to be challenged more was met with denial. As far as I'm concerned if a child has the time to disrupt lessons but still produce the work the child is underperforming but the school refused to accept this (even in light of her CAT scores). We moved her to a small (non selective) independant school in January and have had a complete turn around. Part of the issue is that the school refuses to accept any poor behaviour, but I'm convinced that the main thing is that she is being given interesting and challenging work to do in those subjects she likes, and therefore is far more willing to work at the other subjects as she realises there are benefits to it. She has gone from being a disruptive, unhappy 'average intelligence' child to a happy, bright confident child in less than a year. All the teachers give glowing reports of her behaviour and willingness to work, and she is always in the top 3 at maths, and just missed a L5 in science at the end of yr 4 (they are expected to get L4 at the end of yr6).
I'm not sure how much help I've been here, other tjan to show you that you're not alone. I've also sat there in parents evening with the distinct feeling that the teacher was convinced all problems were due to the parenting at home, when we really didn't have those issues at home. I faired slightly better there as I helped out at school a lot, and also have an older dd there who is extremely well-behaved. Sadly I don't think the school were really willing to address the issues as it was obvious she would come out of the school with L5s in the tests (she does rise to the competition) so as long as she stopped disrupting the class they weren't really bothered whether she was achieving her potential. I think that with 30 children in a class they do concentrate more on the ones who obviously need more help, and don't realise that sometimes children at the other end of the spectrum also have 'special needs'.
Sadly I think that maybe you should look for another school for him, being very open about the problems he has at this school so you can get a feel for whether they are willing to work with you. It is possible to cope with 2 children at different primary schools. We left dd1 at the previous school as she was very happy there and doing very well (it wasn't a bad school per se, just couldn't cope with dd2), and the thought of 2 school runs etc was daunting but now it just requires a bit more organisation.

[NAB3]

I wish I knew what to say to help you. My daughter is 3 and has also been "labelled" as gifted. I bought a book called raising your spirited child but haven't had chance to read much of it yet. Can give you info as it may help you. My daughter won't do things if she can't do it perfectly and is always asking questions and wanting to learn. She is also quite shy at times and emotional.

If the deputy head can't help maybe you should see the head or go to the local education authority. It is good that the GP is on the ball and isn't just throwing drugs at the "problem". It seems if your child doesn't fit in to the "regular/normal" mould, then it is a problem.

I am seeing my MIL later and she used to be a teacher. Would you like me to show her what you have written and see if she has any ideas?

[ruslara]

Re learnig through mistakes, and allowing yourself to make mistakes... I bake a lot, and sell my cakes, so I'm Ok at it. I recently deliberately sabotaged one of my cakes to show DD, who is very very hard on herself, and DS who is just starting out, that it is OK to make mistakes and that even grown ups can make mistakes, and that the cake tasted exactly the same even though it looked hideous! At least we all had a laugh!