Please could we have a heated debate on the best girls' school in the land? Or does mn education board only really deal with boys' education?

[malefridgeblindness]

I've just read the latest eton-wincoll fight thread. It puzzles me why so many of the threads here are about boys' education. So much care seems to be taken to ensure our sons' have the perfect balance of academia and sports, music and drama, but I haven't seen the same debate about what's best for our daughters. I've never seen the sort of evangelism about girls' schools you see about eton and wincoll.

What's happening?

[JewelFairies]

Hmm, good question. I have seen people defending or slagging off different GDST schools across the country...

[letsplayscrabble]

Try having a daughter in N London! It's a bunfight and there are lots of threads on her about Habs vs Channing vs Highgate vs SHHS vs NLCs etc etc

[meditrina]

There's a long SPGS thread that I've seen in Active today. And the SW London schools thread (which is mainly about girls schools) is longer this year than the Trinity/Whitgift one.

I suppose it's just a matter of which threads you spot/open.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

I think with girls there is much more recognition than no one school is going to suit every girl. The very best school is the right school for the individual girl.

[perrycourt]

totally agree with Lonecatwithkitten - I have 4 dd's all who go to different schools all of which are the best for them.

[Ladyflip]

That's because there is no argument. It has to be KEHS in Birmingham.

[roguedad]

HellKats in Abingdon narrowly edges Oxford High GDST in our neck of the woods.

[Molio]

Girls are far better educated with boys. Single sex girls schools these days, especially boarding schools, have a far higher incidence of issues such as eating disorders than any other institution - especially the more academic ones. So if academic excellence is the justification for single sex for girls, then there's an inbuilt problem, at least potentially. As far as day schools go many girls can't wait to escape the often cloistered and often bitchy atmosphere to access a more normal regime in co-ed sixth forms. I was at a GDST myself and was ok with it but single sex was far more normal back then. I've chosen to educate all my girls in co-ed and am very glad to have done so, having heard horror stories of contemporary girls only schools.

[MN164]

Molio

Interesting anecdotes on girls schools, but factually incorrect (and logically so). No doubt there will be plenty of people saying what a terrible time they had at a girls school recounting stories of the school "bitches" - for which you have my sympathy, but you're extrapolating your experience without foundation.

Both the NSPCC and the DoE have commissioned surveys into the overall issue of bullying and discovered, incidentally, that there is less bullying in girls schools. Further surveys confirm the obvious that, of the nearly 1 in 6 (some say 1 in 3) girls that suffer some form of sexual harassment or abuse between the ages of 11 and 16 at school virtually none of it occurs at girls schools. When you don't have knuckle dragging teenage testosterone monsters around less of this stuff happens.

On top of this, the idea that girls somehow stop huddling together, bitching and competing over appearance or indeed male attention because some boys are playing football or looking at bikinis on their phones is, in my humble opinion, utter rubbish. In fact, the presence of boys is more likely to encourage this behaviour.

In fact, every girls school I've seen (open days, discussions with parents/students) compared to many co-eds makes it clear that the pastoral systems are most often much better at coping with PSHE issues for girls - the teacher/girl ratio alone makes that possible, let alone the ability to focus on issues (many of which are not relevant for boys). For instance, remember that eating disorder incidence is to high amongst adolescent girls (and boys) across the entire UK - most of which is in a co-ed setting. There is no evidence that it is any higher in single sex settings at all (prove me wrong please) and there is plenty of evidence that girls schools are better set up to identify and help.

This is born out by the work done on comparing subject choices in single sex and co-ed settings. It is not surprising that in single sex settings boys and girls don't follow "gender stereotype" subjects. Boys will choose arts and languages more often and girls will choose maths, physics and the sciences more often. Put them in a co-ed setting and all the stereotypes are expressed in subject choices - girls in particular shy away from maths and physics - an issue for wider society well discussed.

Take all this evidence, which seems very clear and obvious to me, and add in the icing from the Centre of Longitudinal Research that shows women earning more money following single sex education and marrying just as often (the indicator used for relationship forming).

Oh - and did I forget that girls also perform better academically across the spectrum of schools - private, faith, state - they always perform better - buts that so blindingly clear from the dreaded "league tables" it's hardly worth debate.

[Molio]

MN164 I said I was at a GDST and was fine with it. I was never bullied or ostracized or any of that stuff so thanks, but no sympathy required. My experience was in fact fine. My elder sister went to the same school and her experience was also just fine. But that was decades ago when the world was more divided across gender lines so it was much more normal. All the evidence I have to hand from myriad sources suggests that single sex currently is bad for girls in particular. Boys seem to fare better by far, emotionally at least. Much less bad if a girl has brothers or if the school is closely linked to a boys school with meaningful interaction. And less bad again if it's a day school. My DDs have been educated at a co-ed school which has just been awarded recognition for record numbers of girls taking non stereotypical subject choices. My neighbour went last year to visit Wycombe Abbey for her DD and was told quietly by the senior teacher who took her round that there were significant issues concerning self harming, anorexia etc. She was pretty freaked by it. A friend of mine years ago in the eighties at a hugely academic and well known girls boarding school said that almost half the cohort had eating issues, as she did herself. At a professional level I've had the same thing corroborated. I don't think there's any point fooling oneself. A few A*s here or there isn't worth the misery. Hence my choice for my own DDs.

[JustDerppingAround]

I think the best school in the country for my DDs is the comp that they went to. It's 5 minutes walk away from our house. It was free and they got a place easily enough due to the fact we lived so close. They enjoyed it.
Their exam results were good and they seemed to have plenty of opportunities to widen their school experience.

Yeah, there were one or two shite teachers and the facilities were a bit mediocre but I loved the normalness of it and they won't have a bad word said about it unless it's about their old French teacher which is fair enough having met him

I think that some parents overthink these things.

Disclaimer - I admit I would have whisked them out the local school and sent them to a private school if they needed it. I know there are advantages with sending up your kids to private schools or grammars but a five minute walk is hard to beat.

[meandjulio]

'knuckle dragging teenage testosterone monsters'

Yeah. That, presumably, is my ds and all his friends. Is that attitude prevalent in single sex schools now?

[Farahilda]

makefridgeblindness

The best school is the one which best suits your DD. Which I know sounds a bit trite, but (if you want the question in the title answering) can you tell us a little about what her strengths are, any particular features you want the school to have, day or boarding, roughly where?

Also, would you consider coed, or are you firmly decided on girls only?

[MN164]

I don't mean to say that any one type of school is best for all. We each know what's best for our own.

However, if you want actual evidence there is plenty and it demonstrates girls schooling is fine for many and that coed may be worse for many.

If I catch myself ignoring evidence I seek to change my mind.

[canny1234]

My experience of a girls only private school for my eldest has been fantastic.So good that I am sending dd2 to the same one.I was really resistant to sending my children to single sex schools as i was sent to a convent girls school and found it incredibly oppressive ( in the dim and distant past).But wake up everyone.Girls schools have plenty of men working in them these days and there is a real get up and go atmosphere.These days ( when girls are overtaking boys) I actually think its far more of an disadvantage for boys schools ( for the boys in them, not the results) to become coed.

[MN164]

Meandjulio

I wouldn't know. My one of each are at coed. Perhaps it's hard to think beyond your own experience and your own children. That's why I find the research, surveys and evidence so interesting. No one is pointing the finger at anyone person.

[manicinsomniac]

I'm considering Wycombe Abbey for my oldest daughter in 2016.

I became anorexic while at a co-ed Northern comprehensive. My little cousin became anorexic at a GDST in London. My aunt became bulimic at a girls' grammar in the South West. My grandma became anorexic as an army wife with 4 young children to care for alone. My daughter is borderline anorexic at a co-ed prep school in the home counties.

I'm not convinced that the type of school is the problem in my family somehow!

[Slummiemummie]

My DO is at Wycombe and is very happy there. What senior teacher would have quietly spoken to a prospective parent in this way? Manic go and see for yourself. As others have said different schools suits different children and different pockets, we all make the best choice we can for our children.

[Slummiemummie]

Should say DD!

[fionaf]

My DD is thriving at a GDST school. For secondary we are open minded. She is very into science and maths and although her school has lots of great facilities and do well in a huge variety of subjects, having had a co-ed education myself I know that in sciences a mix can help push the boundaries. I am open minded. Many of the reports about benefits of single sex education I've seen compare state comps to private girls schools, that is going to mess with figures any way you look at it. So in open minded - for me it is about the right fit at secondary and my daughter thrives in an environment where others are high achievers, she gets bored in all ability classes as we found out, quite literally to our cost and hence poor as church mice thanks to school fees .

[MN164]

manicinsomniac

That's a sad family history you have and brave of you to tell the story.

I think genes, family and parenting have much to do with outcomes whereas many think schools have more of a formative effect than they do.

[Molio]

Slummiemummie I don't doubt for a moment that that is exactly what the senior teacher said. I was told the position of the teacher, but I obviously wouldn't say. It was senior. It was in response to a question asked about what issues there were at the school, but my neighbour hadn't meant pastoral particularly.

My DDs have several recent Wycombe Abbey girls amongst their university friends, and say the same about these things.

manic there's very clearly an incredibly strong genetic disposition to anorexia in your family so being particularly alert to the propensity for problems at Wycombe when you go to visit is no bad thing. Wycombe isn't alone, but it's a well known example of a high achieving girls only boarding school where these problems tend to be at their worst, by some way. There are worrying copycat trends with self harming and anorexia these days and the inability to escape the atmosphere because of boarding has an effect. MN164 I'm not sure what you know about anorexia but the worst thing you can do if your child has a strong genetic predisposition to the illness is to put her in a situation likely to trip her over the wire. In that sense, the school manic opts for will be far more critical than school choices made by the parents of other less at risk DC.

[MN164]

Molio

"I don't think there's any point fooling oneself. A few A*s here or there isn't worth the misery."

I think you are right. For some there will be a clear increased "risk factor". However, for many there will be no risk factor (no family history, etc). It's a hard decision to make for a bright student if there is also a belief in the benefits of selective schools and the clear benefits of single sex schooling. If you don't believe in those things its a "no brainer" - you're not going to go for that anyway.

Kings College did some fairly detailed research on it recently which leads me to believe that, most secondary schools having more than 500 pupils, almost everyschool will have at least one definite case amongst their students (1in500).

"Incidences of eating disorders were seen to vary by sex and age with adolescent girls aged 15-19 years having the highest incidence of eating disorders (2 per 1,000)."

The missing analysis is how the incident rate varies by type of school, for example private vs state, faith vs secular, comp vs selective, coed vs single sex.

Even if that analysis shows a type of school with double/triple the rate the question will remain regarding what the causal factors are. For example, there will (unfortunately) be a correlation between pushy parents and selective schools. It will be hard to untangle the true cause.

The question in my mind is how well do schools identify, support and council their students. A school that notices a case every few years won't necessarily be as prepared or alert on a day to day basis. A school that see cases regularly would (one hopes) have much better experience and capability.

[Fleecyleesy]

If you are unsure which school to send your daughter to, then start a thread saying that.