Is a school a "Place of Worship"? (Admissions related question)

[chuffinmuffins]

A nearby CofE secondary has admissions criteria that prioritises families where the parent or child attends "church/place of worship at least monthly and has done for a period of 12 months". A minister's signature is needed to verify that.

A friend is interested in applying for her child. The parents don't attend church regularly, but the child does go to a CofE primary school, which has daily worship (although of course that's compulsory in all schools). The school also has a close relationship with a neighbouring church. The vicar leads school assembly at least once per week, and the children go to the church for special occasions such as start/end term services, harvest festivals etc, so the children know him well.

My question is - does the school fulfill the definition of a "place of worship"? My friend is planning to ask the vicar for his signature, so ultimately it is his decision. It would seem reasonable to me, to expect him to agree to sign it, but I'm curious as to what others think.

Also, if this school does count as a "place of worship" then surely all other schools that follow the rules count as places of worship too?

[AuntieStella]

No. A place of worships one whose primary function is observance of religious practice.

You can worship anywhere. And services can be carried out anywhere.

But attendance at a place of worship means going to church, chapel, meeting house, temple, synagogue, mosque etc

[chuffinmuffins]

AuntieStella: "No. A place of worships one whose primary function is observance of religious practice."

But is that a legal definition AuntieStella, or just an opinion? The admissions form doesn't define what it means by place of worship, so unless there is a legal definition that would stand up to the scrutiny of the Admissions Regulator, surely it's open to interpretation?

[AuntieStella]

Keep posting and prh47bridge will be along with the definitive answer in an education and admissions code context.

The visits to the church might count. But there is some room for clergy discretion as some count all services (eg carols) and others only a main service (eg mass)

[Floggingmolly]

No.

[meditrina]

The legal definition I expect would apply here is any place registered under the Places of Worship Registration Act 1855

[FlyingFortress]

I would be surprised if there was no further description within the admission policy. Usually oversubscription criteria would include references to churches which are members of certain recognised denominations eg the Council of Churches, or the Evangelical Alliance or equivalent. If the only reference is to place of worship, then I suspect that the policy has been put together incorrectly. However if there is a reference to a denomination, then the crux would be whether that denomination eg the CofE, would recognise the school as a place of worship, and I suspect that it would be on this point that the argument would fail.

By way of contrast, the church that I belong to does not have a permanent church building, and instead hires the local school hall on a Sunday morning. Our services are open to all, and we are registered with our denomination, so our attendance on a sunday morning does count for the purposes of the local CE secondary schools.

[chuffinmuffins]

FlyingFortress, the exact wording of the relevant criterion is:

Children of practising members of The Church of England: ‘Practising’ to be evidenced by at least one parent/carer and/or child, who is a worshipping member of The Church of England community at least monthly for a continuous period of 12 months prior to application as agreed by the incumbent

There is no further explanation of what that means (and there probably should be). However, the question they were planning to answer "yes" to on the supplementary information form, which is used to provide the supporting evidence for that criterion, is worded as follows:

Does your child attend church/place of worship at least monthly and has done for a period of 12 months?

[mummytime]

Sorry but you could write to the appropriate Bishop - who I am sure would inform you that he doesn't consider "going to school" and taking part in school worship as being " a worshipping member of The Church of England community", especially as it is quite possible that none of the teachers are C of E (DCs exHeadmaster wasn't).

I would think there is some room for confusion here as the criteria refers to C of E, but the question doesn't. I still think you are trying to find a loophole, and as English Law is based on Common Law, not a written code, you are mistaken.

[chuffinmuffins]

mummytime, the supplementary form also asks for details of the name of the place of worship attended, which in this case would be the CofE school.

The opinion of the bishop won't impress the Schools' Adjudicator. Admissions policies must be worded so that they don't leave room for doubt or confusion, otherwise decisions may be open to challenge.

I agree with AuntieStella that Prh4bridge might be able to shed some light on this one.

[Floggingmolly]

The place of worship means a dedicated place of worship, said worship to take place outside of school hours in addition to that which takes place on school premises. Not the official explanation; but very very few people are ever confused by this to the extent that you appear to be.
YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE CHILD TO CHURCH...

[mummytime]

I really don't think you have any case for the schools adjudicator. But if you or your "friend" want to waste your time and money - you could try. But I believe personally the best you will get is a note to the school/LA to change the wording slightly.

[prh47bridge]

It wouldn't cost any money to refer to the Schools Adjudicator but I think it would be a complete waste of time. The requirement is for a parent or the child to be a worshipping member of the CofE community. I think that is perfectly clear that it means going to church, not simply attending a CofE school. I agree with Mummytime that at most the Adjudicator would get them to change the wording slightly but the Adjudicator may well feel that no change is required.

Note the attendance at worship must be "as agreed by the incumbent". The term "incumbent" refers to the parish priest. A school doesn't have an incumbent. And the incumbent of the relevant parish would not agree that attendance at school qualifies.

Your friend can try but I am quite certain the vicar will refuse to sign on the basis of school attendance. Your friend could try appealing on the basis that the vicar should have signed but I would expect an appeal on those grounds to fail.

[chuffinmuffins]

Thanks prh47bridge - I'll watch with interest to see if she gets the signature.

[MrsWobble3]

our local CofE primary has regular assemblies/services in the church - I would think at least once per month and I know the vicar has signed supplementary forms for younger siblings on the grounds they have attended these. so it may not be an outrageous request to ask.

[drspouse]

Younger siblings are attending with parents that come voluntarily, not as part of the younger siblings' compulsory education.
I'd be very surprised if the vicar signed. Our church is popular with parents wanting a place at a local secondary school and doesn't assess family attendance on a week by week basis, but you do have to actually know who the vicar is, be on the parish roll etc.

[chuffinmuffins]

drspouse, I think the mum may be on the parish role, because she did go to the church during the pre-school years to get the place at the primary. There's a new vicar now though - and while she knows him from school, and from going along to the occasional church service (Christmas, harvest festival, etc), he may not know her. He probably knows her child though.

[catslife]

I would suggest that the phrase "place of worship" could also apply to other recognised Christian denominations who may meet e.g. in a community hall on Sundays rather than a church building.
It may also mean children of other faiths e.g. muslim.
It is quite unusual for C of E schools to give priority to only C of E children as this does affect families who attend e.g. Methodist, Baptist or Pentecostal churches and wish their children to attend a faith school.

[chuffinmuffins]

Just an update. My friend did get the vicar's signature, although in the end she put the church as the place of worship rather than the school, on the grounds that the school do take the kids to the church. It's probably about 3 times each term, so a relaxed interpretation of "once per month", but the vicar was satisfied with that.

It just goes to show that in the end these situations all depend on the opinion of the vicar ... there's no way of making church school admissions completely transparent.

[titchy]

Well that school are leaving themselves wide open to appeal! It can be very easy to verify church attendance - most churches now have a sign in sheet each week so can easily prove how many times a family attend and thus if they meet the published criteria.

[chuffinmuffins]

Well I think it's refreshingly liberal. It's just a shame it's not more transparent so that less savvy families can take up the opportunity too.

(And the church does have a sign-in sheet for normal services, but children taken there by the school for special services aren't offered the opportunity to sign it).

[chuffinmuffins]

It's worth mentioning that in the past the secondary did have a clause which prioritised children from CE primaries. That's not allowed any more. Only named feeder schools are allowed, and this school doesn't have any. So, in practice, this seems like a way of getting around that rule change, provided the vicar is willing to sign on the dotted line.

[Floggingmolly]

You want the loophole (which I'm sure is not universal) to be more transparent so that "less savvy" people can also sneak in by the back door?

[prh47bridge]

Given the circumstances you describe I'm not overly surprised the vicar signed but it is, to say the least, bending the rules. Even if you accept that the children attending church with the school counts (which is debatable to say the least), 9 attendances in a year is not once a month so the vicar has lied on the supplementary form. I agree with Titchy that this leaves the school wide open to appeal from anyone who would have got in ahead of your friend's child had the vicar followed the rules properly.

If the school wants to prioritise children from CofE primary schools it should name all the local ones as feeder schools. That would leave them in broadly the position they were before changing their criteria. Neither they nor the vicar should be trying to continue the previous policy by the back door.

This kind of behaviour by a faith school is a gift to those who oppose such schools being able to prioritise admissions on faith grounds.

[chuffinmuffins]

From the sound of it the vicar signed the form without asking too many questions. Why should he? I imagine many church leaders are fed up of being school gatekeepers and are just happy that so many families are keen to apply .... why should they discourage that by getting themselves a reputation for not signing?

[chuffinmuffins]

FloggingMolly, far from wanting more people to get in through the back door, I'd prefer the front door to be open, so that people don't have to jump through hoops to get into state funded schools.

If it was a distance-based policy then this family wouldn't get in, because they live an hour's bus ride away, but at least the system would be more transparent for the many families that live closer and don't even bother applying because they think they have no chance.