Bottle feeding pariahs.

[nobby]

I fully intended to breastfeed my first child but he never managed to get a single drop of milk from my breasts - even though the milk was there. Health professionals all thought this could be overcome but one after the other they gave up - as did the breastfeeding counsellor, Active Birth teacher, Fred Bloggs... After a week (it seemed so much longer) a kindly midwife said 'stop beating yourself up and give the poor hungry mite a bottle'. He loved it. Blossomed. I expressed for 2 weeks before my milk dried up and then he had formula. So why am I writing this? Because I felt a complete freak. Everywhere I turned, books, the media and other mothers told me that my baby was going to get all sort of diseases, that I was failing him and was an uncaring mother. There was no information on bottle feeding and no help to be had. I was miserable and to begin with it ruined what should be a wonderful time.

My son is extremely healthy, bright, loving and funny. He has not been affected adversely in any way and neither has my bonding relationship with him. The only threat to my sanity and his health came from the breastfeeding evangelists.

Bottle feeding mothers are not evil. There is far more to producing a contented, healthy child than simply breastfeeding.

[Claireandrich]

I had to give up breast feeding completely at 6 weeks, after 2 or 3 weeks of feeling awful about adding more and more bottles. DD was never satisfied with the amount of my milk she was getting. I was very anaemic after a cs and I have since found out that this could have been the reason for me not producing enough milk for her. I never went through that phase of having hard breasts, full of milk - they never leaked, etc. either. Plain and simply I don't think there was enough milk for her.

My daughter too is a fantasic, healthy, adorable child. She has thrived on formula. And so did I. Those 6 weeks at the start were a real concern to me and I spent so much time worrying about it. Once, on formula neither of us looked back.

[miranda2]

Thank goodness - I'm not the only one!! This was almost exactly my experience. I did produce the odd drop of milk, but with it came lots of blood from my cracked, incredibly painful nipples, and I never managed to get any hindmilk out. I was in tears whenever my baby needed feeding, anticipating the pain. All the books said it would be fine if he was latched on correctly, but all the experts who saw us said he WAS latched on correctly. Aarrgh! To make it worse, I had been totally sure I would breastfeed, had no problem with the idea of doing it in public, and had always thought bottlefeeders were naff and uncaring (whoops...). When I finally started bottlefeeding everything came together, EXCEPT that I felt a huge failure and I'm sure my subsequent postnatal depression (which lasted til about 9months - any connection with weaning??) was partly at least due to this. I quite see why there is so much publicity given to breastfeeding, but it isn't helpful for people to lie about it.

[Eeek]

Ask around your friends how many were bottle fed as babies. I was and it's done me no harm, ditto for almost everyone I know. It seems to me you have to weigh up the statistical possibility of the breastmilk preventing asthma etc etc with the absolute certainty that you/your baby is unhappy. No contest.

BTW I mix-feed now - something I didn't even know was possible until I'd given up breastfeeding and was in tears on the phone to a friend.

[nobby]

Miranda2. Yeah, I had PND too and a big part of that was a huge sense of failure because breastfeeding didn't happen. Criminal really.

I'm pregnant again but at least this time i'll have the confidence to do whatever feels right for me and the baby and sod everyone else.

[seahorse]

thank god wer're not alone - I also had major problems breastfeeding - I have 2 inverted nipples and whatever anyone lese says that it is still possible to feed with niplette type tings - it absolutely bloody hurt like nothing else - I lost pounds just in the sweat poring off me and absolutely dreaded feeding - I perservered with ds 1(now 3.5) it ttok 4 months for the bleeding and agony to subside - I felt the same guilt all over again with dd but gave up at 4 weeks on GP's advice - she said it was ridiculous to get yourslef in such a state over it and the tension between me and dd was not outweighed by any benefit breatfeeding. The guilt was incredible and still hasn't gone away - it is putting me off a 3rd just thinking about the breatfeeding trauma... thanks for the supportive thread nobby made me feel loads better.

[Melly]

This thread is brilliant, I have just read it and it has made me feel soooo much better. I breast fed dd exclusively until 3 months and subsequently mixed feeding until she went to a bottle at 4.5 months when I returned to work. Apart from the very early days I enjoyed it and although she was a bit slow to gain weight, we both got the hang of it. This time, ds, who is 3 weeks old today is a totally different baby. He seems so much more hungry and I although I am breastfeeding as much as I can, I'm definitely not enjoying it as I did with dd and am seriously considering changing over to a bottle. Currently I am topping him up with formula at the 6.30 pm feed and again at the 10 pm feed. Apparently this may be the cause of his excessive wind/colic but yet my midwife and health visitor have both said it is ok to mix feed, although this may lead to me switching over to him being fully bottle fed. My point is, as all of you have said, that the most important thing is that mum and baby are both happy and content. At the moment I am somewhere inbetween but having read this thread I will have no guilty feelings if I do decide to switch.

Thanks for inspiring me and giving me the courage to do what's best for my baby and for me

[SoupDragon]

I bf both my DSs for over a year. However, I believe that breast is only best if the mother is happy with it too. There's no point having a breastfed baby and a miserable mother who resents the baby for the pain or whatever. That's not good for anyone!

Not all breastfeeders are anti bottle feeding, honest! It does make me feel sad when mothers dont't give it a good try though but even then, I would never think of criticising their choice. BF can be wonderful, it can be painfully grim (I've been through both, both times) and bottle feeding can be close and snuggly too. The main point is to get a happy healthy baby and a happy healthy mother

Sorry for butting in...

[mears]

Nobby - I absolutely agree with you that a happy bottlefeeding mother is better than a miserable breastfeeding one. However, it is unfair to refer to breastfeeding supporters as evangelists IMO. There is absolutely no doubt that breast milk is the best food for babies. The evidence is there and unfortunately there are are health risks associated with bottle feeding which may not be apparent till adulthood, they are not limited to asthma and eczema.
It is vital that women receive expert support when trying to establish breastfeeding. Unfortunately, Britain has an appalling breastfeeding record so women have an expectation of failure. The culture regarding breastfeeding must change to enable women to succeed.
There are very few women ( less than 1 %) who truly cannot breastfeed. The are very many women who cannot breastfeed because they have not been able to establish breastfeeding because of inappropriate advice from 'professionals' who have limited or no knowledge.
Women have to be honest with themselves also. I have a great friend who bottle fed all 3 of her children. She knew the health benefits but said that she just 'didn't want to do it'. Good for her.
No-one can MAKE you feel guilty - you choose how you are going to respond to any given situation. It is much easier to attack breast feeding 'evangelists' and blame them for everything however, at the end of the day the support you got was lacking. Your baby did not get off to a good start and the situation was not reversed. Breast is absolutely best - the support women receive is not.

[Hughsie]

I do think that when feeding your baby you choose what is best for you both. Bottle fed babies seem to thrive and put on weight better than bf ones in my experience and I have envied the longer sleeps they seem to have. Having said that I am now bfing my second having done it for 7.5 months with ds1. I do mix feed in that one feed is a bottle so that I can
have a break (always hated expressing so chose Aptimel formula as it is closest to breast milk.) I think it is tragic that people are depressed due to their choice of feeding and this can be either way - i sometimes feel i make life difficult for myslef as I cannot hand the baby over for the day (or night) as I would explode!! - also I face the prospect of feeding in front of others when I would rather not especially is ds2 is fractious as my temperature rises with embaressment and noone enjoys it. Having said all that I do mind the ease of not getting out of bed in the night excellent - the health benefits are a bonus and I dont have to be too organised when I leave the house - just the change bag.

I think everyone has the choice and should not worry about what everyone else feels about it - it's your baby and your body!

[tiktok]

Nobby, you wanted help with bf, you asked for help with it, and it sounds like a number of people, including volunteers, gave their time and their concern to you as a result.

It didn't resolve your problem - I'd need to know a lot more about what went on, but my guess would be that you never managed to see someone who really knew what to look for when observing a feed. Not your fault!!

Now, though, you are full of anger towards these people who tried to help you, at your request...and did they tell you you were uncaring? I bet they didn't. Did they say your baby could get 'all sorts of diseases'? I doubt it. If they did, then make a complaint to whatever organisation they come from.

The research on infant feeding shows plainly that formula feeding increases the risk of ill health - that doesn't mean trhat every formula fed baby is going to be unhealthy! As an intelligent and obviously caring mother, I am sure you understand about risk, and how uncertain it is applied to individual mothers and babies.

It's normal to be sad when something you obviously wanted so very badly didn't work out - you expressed for 2 weeks which is a huge committment, and you called in all those people which shows how much you wanted to breastfeed. What were those people to do - refuse to answer your call, in case you turned round later and blamed them for threatening your sanity and his health? Or tell you not to make such a fuss, because it doesn't matter how your baby was fed, when to you, it very clearly did?

If you feel evil, or guilty, or a freak, then can I suggest it's the result of your own understandable sadness that something you worked so hard at didn't happen?

Of course there is more to caring for a baby and loving a baby than the way they end up being fed. Of course a mother must choose what makes her and her family happiest, and balance other factors than the theorectical risk to health.

And of course she must feel free to have the support of those around her, however she feeds.

But speaking personally, as someone who spends a lot of her time responding to mothers who want help with bf, I cannot make anyone feel guilty, and nor do I take any blame for mothers who bottle feed feeling freakish. Just as I don't take any blame for the women I speak to who feel freakish, and guilty, for breastfeeding - and I can assure you there are lots of them!

Sorry this is long, but I am getting a bit tired of taking the rap for mothers' sadness and disapppointment. There are lots of ups and downs in parenting, and all of us end up doing things we feel ambivalent about, or which we didn't plan to do. We learn that feeling guilty is an occupational hazard of it all!

For the record, I am happy if mothers end up doing what they are happy with

[nobby]

Mmmm, I wondered how long it would take before someone stepped in to counter our relief at finding others who went through what we did.

'Evangelist' is obviously an emotive term that you don't like, but many people I came across espoused breastfeeding above and beyond my baby's health and my emotional needs and that's not right. I still think the term applies to those specific people.

Breastfeeding is ideal because statistically across the population breastfed babies are healthier and I am aiming to breastfeed my expected baby. But I was made to feel that my own child was under a direct and dire threat and it was my fault for not trying harder. I truly believe that my baby would never have breast fed. He was hungry, miserable and losing weight quickly. It was so wonderful to see his delight when given a bottle. He changed overnight. Do you think I would be a better mother to have denied him that?

I agree with most of your points about education and support and realise that I lived in a rarified area as breastfeeding was the norm. But we are going too far the other way and placing huge expectations on mothers.

I'm glad I didn't know you at the time. You would have definitely made me feel worse and your point that I chose to feel guilt is unconstructive in the extreme. Besides, little digs that our lovely tots may be storing up health problems when they're older are designed to make mothers feel guilty, so don't blame all our bad feelings on us. Stop living by theory and start taking individuals into account.

By the way, I didn't expect to fail. I one hundred percent expected to succeed and this made my sense of failure greater.

[Enid]

Which books were you reading? I've got several upstairs that give positive info on bottle feeding - What to Expect, Great Ormond St and Gina Ford to name but three.

I'm glad you have a happy healthy son and don't place too much stock on what other people think - after all, according to current research, happy babies are destined to have more health problems in the future than unhappy babies! So obviously you would go mad if you tried to please everyone. But can I just say that Tiktok and mears are extremely knowledgeable people who have helped countless women on this site. If you feel a failure (and I hope you don't) thats your problem, not theirs, or, as Tiktok points out, the people who tried to help. I had a few problems bfeeding dd2 and this site was very helpful and so was my local counsellor. Obviously they assume that you want to carry on otherwise you wouldnt have contacted them in the first place, I presume?

[mears]

My apologies nobby, that my post was a bit clumsy. Tiktok is more eloquent than me.

Unfortunately I didn't get across my point very well about 'choosing' to feel guilty. At the moment I am going through a very difficult time at work with my manager. This week there was an incident that has brought everything that has been going wrong between us to a head. In discussions with my HR manager, it has been reiterated that the reaction I have had over incidents is related to how I have chosen to react ie. no-one can MAKE you angry, sad etc. It is the way you have chosen to respond. That is not to say that the person responsible is not totally out of line. I need assistance to help me stop responding to her in such an upset way - I need assistance to be able to respond in a more calcultaed was if you like. The problem basically is hers and not mine. When I am able to respond in a more positive way for me then I will not get into this state again. Sorry - this is totally off the topic but reflects where I was coming from. Incidentally - choosing a response does not come until you gain insight - next stop Employee counsellor service.

[nobby]

This is a very emotive subject and affects you when you are at your most vulnerable -washed through with hormones and exhausted. That has to be taken into account when telling people that they can choose how to react. I know that this may be psychological truth but still feel it is cold and unconstructive to tell people who are still feeling wretched.

The people who tried to help me bf didn't make me feel bad. I'm not blaming the professionals etc.
(Although, actually one midwife did tell me that I was failing my baby and a lot more besides. Of course, I would complain now but at the time I didn't have the strength or emotional resources.) But, as i said, it's the general information in the media, public opinion (at least where i lived) and other mothers who put the pressure on you. The avalanche of information on the wards etc about the benefits can have a negative effect when you don't succeed. No-one's fault, but they do. You would have to be a very strong person to simply 'not care what other people think' at this stage, especially with a first child.

You don't have to take the rap for our unhappiness Tiktok, but allow others their grief.

I started this thread so that other mothers with similar experiences would realise that they were not alone and shouldn't feel so bad about themselves. I think we all agree that breastfeeding is preferable where possible and good luck helping women to breast feed successfully. But can we still allow women who couldn't to express their feelings without feeling judged?

Sorry you're having a bad time at work Mears. I think it is hard to react constructively to a bullish manager (who has more power than you) and that not everyone is political/calculsted enough to play the games needed. Very stressful.

Hughsie - that was a lovely positive message.

Enid - I did find some useful books in the end (just not in the first few weeks)

[mum2toby]

Oh Nobby.... I couldn't have put it better myself!!! I had to give up after 4 days. And that was 4 days of HELL!
The looks of disapproval from Midwives, friends and strangers alike were overwhelming! I felt horrible and add to that the fact I had PND it was the worst time in my life.

DS is a picture of health! I will try to bf again if/when the next one comes along. But not cause I was bullied like last time, but coz I WANT to! ANd if it doesn't work out who cares.... it's not the end of the world and I know whats best for me and my child!

[Hughsie]

m2t - that's exactly the approach I took this time - bf is going well but I'm open minded!

[tiktok]

Nobby, no one knows better than breastfeeding counsellors (at least the ones I know) how emotive feeding is. I don't think (and it wasn't me who suggested it) that people can choose their reactions, and mears has explained that she didn't mean it the way you took it

I think there is an issue in the UK with bf promotion, though. It is absolutely no good whatsoever to mothers, to babies and to bf, to bang on and on about the benefits of it, if the infratructure to support it and make it actually work isn't there. I have a running resentment about this!!

I see mothers and speak to mothers every day who are in emotional shreds about feeding (so don't, please, imply I don't know the reality of it) - they feel inside they are failing. Breastfeeding counsellors never use the word 'fail' with mothers (or even with each other) with regard to bf. Part of our job is to make women feel better about their mothering and to help them gain in confidence to choose what's right for them.


You say, 'You don't have to take the rap for our unhappiness Tiktok, but allow others their grief. '

I acknowledged your grief, and in fact wanted to use that word instead of sadness or disappointment (which I did use) but held back because I did not want to be accused of labelling your emotions too strongly. But everywhere in my post, and elsewhere on these boards when the issue comes up, you'll see that I acknowledge the genuine and deep feelings that are there when mothers use formula after a bad experience bf.

You say: 'But can we still allow women who couldn't to express their feelings without feeling judged? '

I didn't judge you for expressing your feelings, or for your feeding experience.

On the other hand, you were very clearly judging me and others like me for making you risk your sanity and your baby's health. You later implied very strongly that I thought you 'ought' to breastfeed at the expense of your baby's health and happiness. You have no justification for judging me in that way, and it is unfair.

I know - believe me - that when we feed our babies, however it's done (formula, breast, mixed) we lay open a sensitive and vulnerable part of our hearts. I understand that mothers may then feel judged, criticised and even like pariahs (!) because of others.

It works all ways - I speak to breastfeeding mothers who have been told they are being 'selfish' in bf (because grandma can't babysit overnight), that they are 'exhibitionist', that they are stupid (because how on earth can a mother's body produce good food?), that they are self-indulgent, that they can't possibly feed a baby as old as six weeks/six months/a year/two years, whatever...well, the list goes on.

Those mothers are hurt as well, and feel lonely and isolated.

We (modern society) are not very kind to mothers, I think; whatever mothers do, they can feel undermined. We set such high standards for ourselves as parents, too, and this pressure comes from within.

[SamboM]

I was not able to breastfeed as I am on immunosuppressants which don't cross the placenta but do get into the milk. If I had breast fed I would have been compromising my dd's immune system. I found this very upsetting as I wanted to give my dd the best start in life but there was nothing I could do.

I asked about bottle feeding at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital's ante natal classes and was told in no uncertain terms that they wouldn't discuss it as they were a "Baby Friendly hospital". As you can imagine, I hit the roof and pointed out that it wasn't very baby-friendly to feed immunosupressant to a baby. Everyone else joined in and agreed that they wanted to know more about bottle feeding and we ended up discussing it for a long time.

I was made to feel like a bad mother by total strangers, I had to keep explaining why I couldn't breastfeed (although it was in my notes). It is nobody else's business but mine why I was bottle feeding.

My daughter is happy and healthy, has had one cold in 8 months and is on the 90th centile for height and weight.

I feel that these "evangelists" should try and be more sensitive before launching into their "breast is best" lectures (I must have had 30 of them in 8 months). They don't always know the full story.

[snowball]

Nobby, wish I'd known about Mums net when my ds was born. I spent 5 days in hospital expressing onto a spoon to feed him then spent 13 hours on the first/day night trying to feed him by which time my nipples were pouring with blood. By the time my dh called the mid-wife I was a quivering wreck dreading him waking up. Thankfully the mid-wife was fantastic and sent my dh to fetch a bottle to feed my ds. I spent the next two days in tears feeling like the worst mother ever and a total faliure. It didn't help that the baby blues had kicked in too. Anyway, after a week I realised bottle feeding was the best thing for myself and my ds. He is now a very happy and healthy 16 month old. What really annoyed my was every mid-wife/doctor/breast feeding counsellor saying 'everyone can breast' as this is just not true!

[snowball]

Nobby, wish I'd known about Mums net when my ds was born. I spent 5 days in hospital expressing onto a spoon to feed him then spent 13 hours on the first/day night trying to feed him by which time my nipples were pouring with blood. By the time my dh called the mid-wife I was a quivering wreck dreading him waking up. Thankfully the mid-wife was fantastic and sent my dh to fetch a bottle to feed my ds. I spent the next two days in tears feeling like the worst mother ever and a total faliure. It didn't help that the baby blues had kicked in too. Anyway, after a week I realised bottle feeding was the best thing for myself and my ds. He is now a very happy and healthy 16 month old. What really annoyed my was every mid-wife/doctor/breast feeding counsellor saying 'everyone can breast' as this is just not true!

[tiktok]

SamboM, under Baby Friendly, instruction in bottle feeding can't be done in a group. This is (among other reasons) because it is not an effective way to teach people to do something which is so hands-on...under Baby Friendly, instruction has to be done face to face one-to-one with the mother (and father if there) when she needs to know.

Discussion on bottles and formula is permitted, though if there is only a limited time in the antenatal class to go through breastfeeding, they might well be reluctant to spend a lot of time on formula feeding.

Immunosuppressants are indeed one of the very few drug regimes which may well not be compatible with safe bf, and you are right in saying people should be sensitive to this. I think the repetition of the question by health professionals is par for the course - they always ask stuff that is there in your notes and they should know it drives people crazy. 'Is this your first baby?' or 'did you have a normal delivery last time?' or 'when did you have your last scan?' all that sort of stuff......Read the Bloody Notes, why doncha???

Snowball - everybody (virtually) makes milk, but people who say 'everyone can breastfeed' (who are these people who say this? Do they not have eyes and ears?) are ignoring the social and physical realities of getting Milk A to Baby B via nipples C....and someone who has bleeding nipples as bad as yours is (almost always) being given extremely poor care by the health professionals around her. Glad you and your baby came through smiling in the end

[easy]

Mears,

As a side issue to this, I think your HR manager is talking absolute bo**ks !!
OF COURSE other people can make you sad, angry, depressed or happy, you can't always choose how to react (ask someone who has just lost a loved one, either thru death or infidelity).

Your HR manager is trying to stem your tide of emotion that will give him or her a problem if you leave or take further action against the other people who are giving you a hard time. If our emotions were so controlable, no-one would ever have a bad day, or fall wonderfully in love, or express any of those feelings that make us human

More on-subject of this thread, Nobby of course you can't control feeling guilty, and I think we will all feel guilty about lots of things that happen as we bring our children up, it's part of parenting.

I had to give up bfing my baby (which was going reasonably well) after 3 weeks, when my father died. the emotional and practical committment required by both was impossible. As you guess, ds is a healthy, happy individual, and I avoided causing myself the sort of stress which might have set off a bout of depression


OK rant over

[nobby]

Phew. Everything's getting more positive and supportive. God knows, people need a support group.

Tiktok: I wasn't judging you personally - don't know you - but judging attitudes I have come across. AND I can only respond to how your words come across to me on screen. I have to say that your understanding about mothers' emotions came across a lot more in later messages.

SamboB: I've just realised that all of us are taking great pains to stress how healthy our bottlefed babies are! We shouldn't need to, should we?

[nobby]

Easy: Well put!

[lisaj]

Nobby - I know exactly how you feel, as this was my experience with ds (now 4). I did try to bf, but had lots of problems and also found that I didn't get much help in hospital - I felt like a piece of meat whilst various different individuals grabbed hold of me, saying that I should be able to bf. In the end I bottlefed, as ds was losing weight rapidly and both he and I were very miserable. I just felt that no-one tells you beforehand that bf may be incredibly difficult. With dd (now 16 months) I decided to give it a go again, but swapped to bottlefeeding once again. This time I found the midwives much more positive about my decision, and actually said that if I was happy, then it made for a happier baby. I definitely felt much more in control and happy with my decision this time.