It is impossible to overfeed a FF baby

[FunnysInTheGarden]

.....discuss.

In my experience it is. Unless you use enriched formula intended for prem babies. If you use normal formula, I would defy anyone to overfeed a FF baby.

I disagree. I know several babies who have been overfed. They drink the whole bottle - however many oz they are offered - then throw up about half of it.

if they throw it up, they don't need it, and so presumably don't absorb it either.

My two babies would not take an ounce more than they needed, as with many FF babies I know.

Are you sure about the Prem formula

I remember looking into it and all the formulas had. More or less the same calories per 100g

There is a good body of research on this, showing that formula feeding is a way to overfeed. Will post links tomorrow. Some researchers feel parents are under-informed about the risks and how best to avoid them.

Of course, your own experiences with a study of N=2 may well overturn all this, Funny.

(How do you know they would not take an ounce more than they needed? Maybe they needed 5, managed to take 6, and then refused the 7th!)

how funny that my comments about my own experience be sneered at so early on into the discussion, but how very unexpected.

My children are both slim and healthy and from this I deduce that they did not and are not over feeding on formula.

Would be interested to see the research.

sorry should have been how very unsurprising. Its early!

I haven't a clue about over feeding formula as only my DS had it and only took what he wanted and now as a slim 5yo still has no interest in food.

What about the other side of the coin? over feeding a bf baby. I know it's widely claimed that a bf baby cannot be over fed but I beg to differ.
My nephew was breastfed and he was sooo big. I honestly have never seen a baby with so much fat. He had so many rolls of fat on his legs that you struggled to get is nappy on as there was no space between his thighs. You couldn't really see his eyes for a few months until he started crawling and weaning began.
The reason for this was that every time he made a sound my sister fed him. And then he would vomit everywhere because he'd only had a big feed 30 mins before!

Just a thought

FummysInTheGarden your experience with your own children is not in doubt.

However it is not really possible to extrapolate this information to then say all FF babies must behave in this way because yours did. All FF babies may well behave in the same way as yours but you would need further evidence to coroborate this.

I think it's possible to overfeed both FF and BF babies. My BF baby will quite often comfort feed due to wind and stomach pains (because milk is an antacid) and will drink until she is sick then carry on drinking without leaving the nipple.

Also you seem to be misreading the evidence that it is possible to overfeed FF babies as saying that all FF babies are overfed.

I know there is research to suggest that FF can lead to overfeeding but I don't believe this research then goes on to say that all FF babies must therefore be overfed.

Not sneering at your experience, Funny - I was making a comment on your apparent determination to cast doubt on anyone overfeeding a ff baby anywhere because your children were not overfed.

I hope you can see the difference :)

You asked for a discussion.

Once again, not liking the answers, you are pulling the Woe Is Me, You're All Horrible Breastfeeding Nazis card out. Its getting slightly old now, to be honest with you.

I'm pretty sure my DS1 was overfed on formula.
He was tiny at birth but was injured during birth and had a broken bone. He drank a LOT of formula while it was healing (the first few weeks) then had got used to having large amounts and carried on! He was huge as a baby after a few weeks.
His paediatrician said that his body wanted the extra calcium when his bones were healing and so he drank the extra milk and then when the bones were healed his tummy had grown and so needed more to keep him full!
It all evened out when he was about 1 and started walking and now he is a skinny 5yo, which is what he geneticaally should be I think!

OK, Funny, refs coming up (helpful to me in some work I am currently doing, as well).

I have selected papers which look at term babies only and which are available, at least in abstract form, on the web, and which are all reasonably recent. The concern about 'overfeeding' with formula goes back many decades in the literature, though. Some of the literature duplicates, at least to a certain extent, previous work. One paper is a discussion among experts rather than a research study.

I could not find any paper which looked at the issue and concluded overfeeding was not a concern - but feel free to have another search.

Sorry - this is a long cut&paste but you did ask :)

Key Issues to Address With Bottle-Feeding
Pediatric Nursing, Jan, 2001
? a discussion among paediatricians and others in the US which highlights need for parents to be aware of overfeeding.

Feeding Patterns in Breast-Fed and Formula-Fed Infants.
Seivers et al.
Ann Nutr Metab 2002;46:243-248

• highlights difficulty of true ?demand feeding? in a formula fed baby and the difficulty in matching intake with need.

Mode of infant feeding and achieved growth in adolescence: early feeding patterns in relation to growth and body composition in adolescence.
Tulldahl J et al.
Obes Res. 1999 Sep;7(5):431-7.
?our results imply that formula fed infants may be at risk for overfeeding, which might lead to overweight, even up to adolescent age?

Do Infants Fed From Bottles Lack Self-regulation of Milk Intake Compared With Directly Breastfed Infants?
Li et al.
Pediatrics, June 2010

• This paper answers ?yes? to this question and interestingly, looks at bottle feeding with ebm, as well as formula, and concludes that the same risk applies.

Mothers' experiences of bottle-feeding: a systematic review of qualitative and quantitative studies.
Lakshman et al.
Archives Disease in Childhood, July 2009

?Inadequate information and support for mothers who decide to bottle-feed may put the health of their babies at risk ? ? refers to the frequent presence in the papers in the review of the inc tendency to overfeed .

I ff both mine and they both rarely finished a bottle and I was always worried that they weren't taking enough.

They are both skinny minnies and are blessed with v good appetite control.

However, I can quite see that a baby with a less effective appetite control mechnism could easily end up over feeding on ff.

In conclusion, it's probably down to the genes

truffleshuffle - research does not predict outcomes in individual babies. I think it prob is possible to over feed a breastfed baby but all the evidence indicates that it is more difficult to do so, and that it is relatively easy to do so with bottle feeding - which is why some of the papers in my list call for better education of ff parents, so they minimise this.

There is also evidence that porky breastfed babies - and I have seen some breastfed chunky monkeys in my time too :) - do lose this excess as they grow, more easily than their ff counterparts, so we prob don't need to be overly concerned about them (a friend's baby was mahoosive, right up to toddler age, but was no bigger than average by the time he started nursery - is this what has happened to your nephew?).

Individual differences in physiology, personality, mother's behaviour and so on are going to make a difference, which is why studies try to isolate only the feeding method and compare that.

wow SBAL massive leap to make there. Can't quite follow your train of thought

pinkthechaffinch - interesting you were worried about them not finishing a bottle. This comes up in the studies - the anxiety parents have if the babies don't drain their feed.

Some babies may not be quite so 'stubborn' in rejecting the unwanted formula, and continue to drink even when they really have had enough, because the parent keeps trying to get more down them (worried, like you, that they were not getting enough).

So one of the education pointers highlighted was to tell ff parents to accept their babies' signs of 'I've had enough - take it away!'

pinkthechaffinch my two were the same, never drained a bottle, although I never worried/thought about it. I also thought skipping a bit of food wasn't going to do that much harm, mind you I'm a bit of a careless mum I know a lot of women who think if they don't finish the bottle they won't sleep!! I have the misfortunate of having had a great "feeder" who never slept anyway .

I agree op. My dd would push the bottle out of her mouth with her Tongue so I always knew when she had had enough. I must admit I don't know why some people assume you overfeed with ff but not with bf. I've done both and dd stopped when she was full.

Tiktok that's interesting about worrying about the baby not finishing the bottle. My dd very rarely drank the recommended amount and was a big baby at birth so I can see some parents would worry and try to keep feeding.

nannyj - the observational studies show that some people do try to keep feeding - obv not everyone.

The other thing some of the studies include in what parents should be told about is to be careful about making the feed too dense.

It's not unknown to this deliberately - add an extra scoop (or - horrors - rusk or rice) to make the baby sleep. I think this is rarely done these days as most people know it could be harmful, but the fairly frequent suggestion to do it from mothers and MILs indicates it was at one time fairly common.

I don't think anyone should assume a ff baby is overfed - that's just daft. But Funny's original proposition was that it is actually 'impossible' to over feed, which is clearly wrong.

The waste of formula frustrated me as it was so expensive and also I became a bit obsessed with the recommended amount they were supposed to drink over 24 hours-it was written on the packet of formula.

It was only when my HV told me to ignore it as dd was gaining weight, that I relaxed a bit. Very silly, it seems in hindsight, but the need to feel you are feeding your baby enough is just so ingrained.

My EBF DS was massive - rolls of fat, huge cheeks, double chin etc. Did I overfeed? Er not as far as I know. He decided when to come off the boob.

As soon as he started moving, the fat dropped off of him. He's walking now, has a little belly but not a chunk anymore.

So does that prove anything? No.

There was an interesting study being reported on radio 4 following the diets of babies from birth onwards. Early results indicated that FF babies were more likely to be obese when older as they are more likely to be overfed.

Maybe it only takes an ounce a day over what they breed for babies to increase their appetite then get fat? I had heard that it only takes an extra biscuit a day, above what you need, for you to get overweight in tie.

Overweight in time

Blooming phone.

Well in my experience based on one baby - it is indeed impossible. She had as little as she damn well wanted and wouldn't budge. I learnt to not worry and starting ff-ing on demands so she just continued to have many little feeds until weaned. Just had to be organised about bottles. Had eight in the end to keep up!!
Also - the overfeeding and throwing up thing happened to me MORE with bf-ing. With ff-ing sick was more likely to be caused by not getting a burp up.
I have noticed a trend in the older generation to demand babies finish bottles. They seem to really worry about the last 2/3 oz or whatever. they also worry about a meal with last few mouthfuls left untouched. My theory is it is a worry passed down from their parents who had it due to wartime rationing.