Would you consider this normal?

[mumofhelen]

This is a rambling so please don't reply to make a judgement on my behaviour. It's more of "what would you do in my position" type of question.

In a group of 8 children, who have known each other since the age of 2 (they are now 3 years old) there is 1 who is always left out and always needs an adult with them. They will scream the place down big time (i'm not exaggerating) if mum leaves for a minute to the point that the child needs 1:1 adult attention at all times.

This particular child refuses to eat with the other children, refuses to play with the other children and basically only likes the attention of adults.

I can't help thinking why the mother bothers coming along to the get-togethers. She never talks to other parents despite a big effort from all of us. The exception was at her son's 3rd birthday. She invited everyone and we on all got on like a house on fire. The party was the best my children have attended, she was a great laugh and a completely different (and likeable) person and we all thought "yes!". But then things cooled again.

Basically, the other parents - myself included - have been talking about her and her son, discussing whether the child's behaviour is 'normal' and why the child has not made any friendships - locally at least. The children are now of an age whereby they are choosing who to play with, and myself and other parents are having to instruct our children to play with this particular child - a request which is always met with protest. I understand the other 7 children not wanting to play with the child. For example, my dd approached in a friendly manner, holding her hand out and the child promptly slapped dd around the face. This child has also head butted other children and we believe this is the reason why the child is basically ostracised. After all, if all you get is a kick in the face trying to be friendly, why try?

I understand he attends nursery for a few hours and he has the same problems there.

I guess I'm trying to find out whether his behaviour is within the definition of 'normal' for a 3 and a half year old?

I must admit, out of the 30 odd 3 year olds I know, I've never met a child behaving in such a manner hence why I'm asking.

Any tips appreciated.

[southeastastra]

er yes it's normal, and you all discuss this child's behaviour amongst yourselves? nice

[TotalChaos]

what's this child's speech like?

I am a bit though at you all sitting around discussing this child's unpopularity, and justifying the"ostracism" of such a very young child. Maybe the mum doesn't talk because she's too stressed at dealing with her kid/worried about what the rest of you are saying thinking about this kid.

[mumofhelen]

That's why I asked not to bother posting a reply if all you're going to do is judge me and the other parents for discussing it!

[coppertop]

I don't think I'd want to be friends with people who sit around talking about me and my child in the way you describe either.

[bluejelly]

3 seems a bit young to make serious friendships anyway. if the child was 8 or 9 it would be would be a different matter

[hercules1]

SOunds perfectly normal to me. I would be more concerned about the rest of you discussing it tbh.

[coppertop]

So you're happy to judge the mother but don't want to be judged yourself?

[hercules1]

but you want us to judge a 3 year old?

[TotalChaos]

red mist aside - it's up to you if you want to continue the friendship with the mother and child. whether this child has some form of SN or not, I imagine that this mother is likely to feel stressed and unhappy that her child doesn't seem to be fitting in. So if you do want to consider the friendship, don't offer any unasked for advice - nursery should be flagging up if they have any concerns, but listen if she wants to talk about it and cut her some slack if she seems quite silent or morose. She may well be worried sick.

[Buda]

I have to say I find it quite normal that a group of mums would discuss the behavious of another child! Come on - we all would. It doens't necessarily mean that we are gossiping or being nasty or judgemental. If certain behaviours mean the are issues with how one child interacts with the others of course it will be discussed!

[sherby]

Yes it is normal for a 3 1/2 yr old to hit occasionally.

He may just be a shy child who is unsure of himself. She was probably nicer/talkative at her sons birthday party because she was in her own home and felt in control. Do you not think that she probably realises that you all feel this way about her and her son? I think that would be enough to make anybody feel uncomfortable.

TBH it sounds to me like you are all looking for a reason to dump the pair of them?

Hopefully your children wont start to hit anytime soon.

[dizzydixies]

Agree Buda, I was absolutely slated last week for discussin with 2 good friends the nature of a child in the nursery all our kids went to as they were all having problems with him

mumofhelen I don't envy your situation but please remember what you said about the party and how she was then. It COULD just be she realised her lo is a bit more difficult and there is nothing worse than being the odd one out.

[Dorasboots]

Sorry, DS only 1, so don't know about the behaviour of a 3yo, so can't answer on that part of it.

If I was part of this group, i'd consider trying to talk to this mother on my own, and gently steer the conversation around to her son and see if she opens up. she might just need somebody to talk to - especially if she was good company that one time. She obviously keeps coming to the group for some reason, so she must be getting something out of it, which maybe means her son is even more demanding of her time at home, the poor woman is probably exhausted and in need of a friend, but doesn't know how to open up - I imagine it would be difficult to say "gosh my son is wearing me out and is difficult to manage..." or something like that.

Must be tricky for you if your DD is being hurt by him though.

[southeastastra]

i don't know, i don't think it's that common for mums to discuss a child's behaviour without the mother present. it would make me very uncomfortable to be in that position.

[Desiderata]

You're asking us not to judge you, but you are asking us to decide, on the scant information you've given us about this little boy, whether he is 'normal.'

On what you'd told us, I would say yes. I think where you're going wrong is asking the other children within the group to specifically play with him.

You ask a three year old to do something, and invariably they'll do the opposite.

[jalopy]

Mothers don't discuss other childrens' behaviour? Er...yes they do.

What planet are you all on?

[Desiderata]

Planet earth, Jalopy. I've never discussed a three year old's behaviour or development with other mothers. Not in any negative context.

[ScruffyTeddy]

mumofhelen, perhaps you dont mean to be but if I was the other child's mum I would feel incredibly intimidated by you and your circle of friends.

I am very shy in rl..perhaps this mum is, and perhaps she just also happens to have a difficult child. I think the fact that she invited you all to her ds's party says a lot, and it would appear she felt more comfortable because it was her ds's party..and so she wasn't the one joining in, she was the host...it was her gig!

Does that make any sense?

[EricL]

This child is a bit different.

Why is this up for deconstruction?

[LIZS]

Don't think it is that unusual . Children differ. Parallel play is still common at 3 dvemopling into more cooperative play, taking turns etc towards school age. You've only known her a year or so and possibly don't know what happened before then which may have brought this about. She may be more on edge if she isn't at home.

I'm not sure what tips you are after tbh. Does his mum acknowledge any issues, or how have you heard this about nursery behaviour ?Is she asking for ideas ? It would be nice if the mum took the opportunity to involve another child while she interacts with her own but that is up to her. You cannot expect the children to do it among themseleves even if you instruct them but you could start up a game and try to draw him in , for example.

[mumofhelen]

With respect to speech: It's difficult to tell.

He can say 'go away', 'I want my mummy'. So one liners he can say. Because he doesn't interact with other children, it's difficult to tell what his speech is like with other children. He tends to use physical acts such as biting, kicking, slapping and head butting to express his wants, which seems to be for us to go away. When you play with the child, he doesn't really 'talk' but can say 'no' 'yes' and 'my turn'.

The mum doesn't say much and it's difficult to get a conversation going so we don't even know her likes or dislikes. We've tried to ask her partner to the get-togethers because that's the only difference between the get togethers and the birthday party. At the birthday party her partner was there. Unfortunately, when we suggest it to the mother, all she says is, "I don't know" or "maybe". We did ask once whether it would be more convenient for her if the get-togethers were at a different time, but apparently not.

Dizzydixies and Dorasboots: I think you understand our situation. It's actually a comment made by one of the other mums that got me thinking, that of "I wonder what he is like at home?" The thing is, we don't know. We've tried the individual approach but without luck. I invited her to dd birthday party. I was hoping that I could have a chat with her, but it was at a softplay centre and despite only 12 confirmations, 25 children turned up! I was rushed off my feet and I ashamed to say that apart from the offer of a cup of tea, I did not talk to her at all.

I think ST has made a good point: It did not cross my mind but I guess we may come across as intimidating - although that's not at all our intention. I had not thought of that. And that would explain the party.

[perpetualworrier]

I had a very clingy 3yo (now popular almost 7yo - Today I was told by one of the mums from his class that all the girls want to marry him )

All I can say is that my heart bleeds for this mother. It's very hard work to take a child out to gatherings where you know they won't mix well, but you keep going, because you want to help them socialise. It's difficult to mix yourself because you have a child attached to you permanently and also (maybe) you feel guilty because you're not particularly outgoing yourself and worry that this may have rubbed off on him.

Not on if he's hurting other children and not being dealt with, but other than that perfectly normal and this mum needs some good friends to support her through a very difficult time.

[jekyllandhyde]

i think i would probably stop taking my dc to your get-togethers if i were her

[wannaBe]

ok I think people are getting a bit het up here, esp given we only have a snapshot of what this child is like.

Personally, a child which seemingly cannot interact with other children other than through violence and needs constant 1-1 from an adult at 3.5 does not sound normal to me. No at 3.5 children are not developing life-long friendships, but generally they are able to play with one another and interact with one another. And yes, I do actually think that it is normal for parents to discuss other children, not necessarily in a negative way, but if one child stands out from the crowd be that for positive or negative reasons, then generally parents notice, and will talk about it.

What is this child's speech like? If he has speech delays then he might be frustrated in which case lashing out is his form of communicating, iyswim?

If this child's behavior is such that you don't feel you want your children to play with him, then I would suttly move the friendships on. however, if he generally is doing no harm, then I would just leave it be, and let the children sort it out for themselves.

[BoysOnToast]

dss used to hit other kids at soft play etc. he got v frustrated v quickly. his prob was that he was more daring and 'quick' than the other dc his age, wanted to join in with the bigger dc... the bigger dc dismissed him for a baby, which pissed him off/hurt him, he didnt know how to deal with that, and he lashed out. happened all the time.

so thats one explanation.

hes a perfectly lovely, lively 8yo now. 3 is ever so young to conform to behavioural norms, so in answer to OP, YES, its 'normal'. (my 3 dc do not have the same level of knackering hyperactivity, but that doesnt make any of the 4 abnormal.)