Where have I gone wrong with him?

[emmatmg]

Our DS1 is a happy loving little boy(4.5yrs) who loves to play with his little bruv and adores his baby bruv too. He will sit kissing babe and play for hours with DS2. However when it comes to me and DH he has absolutley no respect( I know that a strong word to put on a 4 yr old) at all. Especially for me.
I can shout, scream, cry, ask nicely, and virtually plead with him and he still ingnores every thing I say until I'm literally screaming at him to get dressed or eat dinner or stop running etc etc etc the list is endless.
I have spoken to his teachers as I was concerned that the same thing maybe happening at school and they were amazed that I was talking about the same boy. He is helpful and kind and always listens to any instructions while at school, infact he was the first child in his class to get a merit certificate when they started in Sept and he often gets good work sticker. There seems to be some awful change in him in the 5 minute walk home from school.
So have any of you got any suggestions? I've tried star charts and always give him lots of praise for good behavior. We buy him bit's and bob's when he good and go out the fun places when DH is off work (if the DIY allows!!).
We have always been consistent with telling him off for things and praising him and no always means no and never changes. I can't even put it down to when DS3 arrived(11 weeks ago) as he's always been hard work.
We've had a particulary bad weekend and I'm sad that I was glad when it was time for school just so I can get a bit of peace....even with DS2+3 here it's still peace. I've been in tears and feeling pretty much broken by him all weekend and he has seen me crying and apologised yet less than 5 mintues later he's being told off again. I know how horrid this sounds but I am finding it increasingly difficult to be in the same room as him as nothing I do or say seems to get through to him so I'd rather not bother to got wound up in the first place.

I honestly do not know what else to try with him as I've tried all the things that are often suggested on here and where ever.

Sorry I think this has been more of a rant than a anything else but I'd very VERY grateful for any other suggestions for other mums who can control their kids, I obviously can't

[Jenie]

Sorry to hear that things aren't going well with your ds. My dd is also 4 and has her moments! The problem is that they forget straight after an incident (ime) exactly what it is that they've done, if I were to ask dd why I'd been cross with her say 5 - 10 mins after then she usually can't remember.

I'd advise you to stop shouting at him, just tell him in a calm voice with a sad or stern look then take him to his room where he can think about it and where you can get some space.

You only had a baby 11 weeks ago and perhaps things seem out of perspective right now, we all have weekends where we're glad to see out little darlings going off to school on Monday morning .

Is he doing things for attention? Dd drew on her bedroom wall last week and when asked why she said because you weren't looking.

Not much help but things will get better

[samACon]

It sounds similar to my house. DS1 is 5, DS2 is 3 and DD is 5 weeks. Lately I feel that all I seem to do is tell DS1 off and mornings were just one big battle to get to school on time. However I had a big think about it a couple of weeks ago and came to a couple of conclusions.

1 - Boys get a big surge of testosterone at this age which does affect their behaviour (400% if I renmember correctly) so thats pretty much out of their control

2 - I've been hormonal and short tempered for the last 10+ months due to pregnancy and tending DD. If circumstances were different would I get so wound up? Am I and are you expecting too much from our eldests?

Will post some more later but currently v late to pick up DS2 from nursery!!!!

Take a deep breath!

[LIZS]

Things like the refusal to get dressed etc ring so many bells with me. ds is 6 in March and it is still a battle to get out of the house in time. He can dress himself and now more often than not will without the need for too much nagging or me to do it. I set out his clothes and leave him to it. If he gets distracted I give him another chance but ultimately will threaten him to go to school in his pyjamas (it is subzero here and he felt humiliated one afternoon when he came home on the School Bus in his slippers!)which usually works. He is also picky about eating and can be painfully slow - I've largely accepted this one but he doesn't get his favourite rice pudding unless he clears his plate. I think he is also like this at school and comes home telling me he didn't finish an activity while others have.

tbh it has improved over the past year or two and at first with dressing, for example,I started a chart - showing pictures of him and clothes which we coloured in as he could do them by himself. Most of the time he does behave but he can also run pretty wild with his friends.

Does your ds ever get taken out by himself as time out for both of you together could provide a valued breathing space and an opportunity to talk.
Another point, as it has got so on top of you do you feel you have lost sight of what really matters and what doesn't ? I did for a bit and once I focussed on a few issues at a time found it a bit easier than the previous chaos when I felt I was shouting at him most of the time, and some of the other things sorted themselves.

hth

[emmatmg]

jenie, it's not that he forgets as I ask him why he's being told off and he'll tell me even the next day and I've now got to the stage where I'm sick of the sound of my own voice so try not shout a him, blimey I think the neighbours are sick of it too.

samAcon, I've heard the thing about testosterone a few times, but it's been applied to so many different ages that I think he'd have more of the stuff than a room full of grown men. As for expecting too much from him, well sometimes I think I do but then asking him to put his socks or eat his dinner on isn't to much surely. The 'house rules' are the same for him and DS2, no jumping on the sofa ( our bed is for that ) no running in doors, help tidy up( DS2 does 99% more that DS1 and he's only 2.5) that sort of thing so not exactly unreasonable.

it's like fighting a losing battle.

[emmatmg]

LIZs, I've tried the school in PJ's too. Still have to rush out the door after finishing him off.
Yes he often comes out just with me or DH but.....well it doesn't seem to make much difference.

God I really have sporned the devil haven't I

[debster]

I have been seeing a family therapist about my relationship with my ds (nearly 5) and some of the experiences you describe struck a chord with me. First of all - try not to worry too much. The therapist told me this sort of behaviour is very common amongst boys of this age (something to do with the Y chromosome). He also said that boys can find it much harder to follow instructions unless they are crystal clear. For example, we were getting really frustrated with ds when he would hang around us without knowing what to do when we had asked him to go and do something else. This apparently was no use as he couldn't actually think of anything. We were advised to give options/choices - no more than 2 as they can't cope with too much choice (well my ds can't). If we wanted him to do something like get dressed and he is being difficult we give him a choice of either you do this or you have to do something not nice. A bit cheeky but it does work. So you could say "You can either get dressed or you can go to school with no clothes on." The main thing is to follow through if he says ok I'll go with no clothes on. We tried this with my ds and actually made him step outside the front door in his pants and vest. Believe me he's never done it again! The therapist also said try not to get too involved in long explanations about why you're unhappy with his behaviour. They do switch off and don't remember what it is they're supposed to have done. Also star charts should be for things he does and not for things he doesn't do. We were trying to get ds not to make too much noise when he woke up. This didn't work because he didn't know what he was supposed to be doing instead. I told you they're a bit simple! Anyway, what we should have done is get him to do something like look at his books, colouring etc. This is a positive thing that he can understand. I know things seem an uphill struggle at the moment but I was heartened by the therapist saying they do grow out of it.

[Jenie]

Don't feel bad about this, in a few months you'll look back and think thank god that phase is over with.

Shortly after ds was born all I seemed to do was shout at dd and moan and tell her off for silly things. I reached the same point as you where I was sick of hearing myself do this, the real turning point came when dd said I just don't want you to be angry with me any more...

It has taken some time but I've devised other strategies to deal with bad behaviour so now a shout is reserved for danger and to call for dinner on the umpteenth call

I walk her to her room and tell her that she must stay there for 5mins until I'm calm about what's happened.

I talk to her and ask her why she did something instead of just assuming that what ever it was was done just to make me cross. I've found that when dd is borde that things get colourful in our house so keeping hands busy although exhausting for me helps.

I even explain that what she's done has made me cross or sad and why - usually because she or ds could have got hurt I hope that I've given her a level of empathy.

[Jaybee]

Emmatmg - I can so sympathise - I have always felt that I have had to shout at my ds (now 10) - he is also my eldest (dd is 7 on Thursday) and can be very excitable - even now!! He has to be entertained and busy or he will wind up his sister or just jump about.
Weekends used to be a nightmare as we tried to catch up with lots of things and sometimes the kids were left a bit to their own devices and needless to say they were a pain. You say your ds is fine at school, I am assuming from that that he is busy, his mind is active and consequently he doesn't have time for being a pain. Could you set him some school type work to do at weekends, maybe do some sheets with correct letter formations written in highlighter pen for him to practice his letters, or some simple sums to do with sweets to help him work them out. Maybe ask him to draw a football kit or set up a train track. All things to keep his brain active. Also, he probably needs more physical activity at the weekend. My ds is like a dog - if he doesn't get physically exercised at least twice a day he is awful.

[emmatmg]

Jenie, I'd love him to say something like that to me, about not being angry anymore.
Oh I sooo want an day where we don't argue/fight/shout/cry etc etc etc

jaybee, thats a good point you've made about being busy at school. He does like to draw and write(that's what he got his merit certificate for). I bought him an activity book last week as he was so good in his navitity, he was Joseph and I was very proud of his one line! so maybe I'll sit with him and do some more of that.He does got bored quite easily so maybe I need some suggestion on different thing to entertain him, well them really as I can't leave DS2 out, as he's probably bored of all my suggestions.

[Jaybee]

Another thought - what about getting him started with a team sport - some football clubs do 'Football in the Community' on Saturday mornings that tend to take place at local schools - maybe contact a local football club. I am sure ds started this as soon as he was 5. Also ds' rugby club has some children as young as 4 registered with them - although some won't take them until they are 6. This is a good opportunity for him to have a good run around on a Sunday morning - ds2 would be able to run around on the sidelines too. These clubs are an excellent way for him to meet other physically active boys outside of school.

[throckenholt]

maybe he is tired by school ?

My DH always said his sister was an angel at school and a horror at home - as if she had spent all day being ultra good at school and just couldn't do it any more when she got home.

Also I think kids take their parents and their home for granted and don't feel they have to make so much effort there. My Mum always said we were much better with whichever parent was currently going out to work and so was not around so often.

Not much help - but I guess since shouting is obviously not working then try someting else - maybe ask him what you need to do or say to get him to co-operate ? He may surprise with his perspective of things !

[adell]

No advice, just lots of sympathy - DD (nearly 5) has been a total nightmare recently, DH & I just sat there one evening feeling like we were in total shock. Seem to spend my life bribing her at the moment, one of which resulted in me spending my Saturday morning in a freezing cold field wading through mud & horse s**t !! She's part-time at school until January apart from 3 days before Xmas, today's the first and it's been so lovely spending the day with DS (12 weeks) in peace. Hope things improve soon.

[Beccarollo]

Just typed a message then lost it! ggrrr

Add me to the sick of shouting and dont know what to do next list..

DD (4yrs) is a nightmare at the moment, I have been struggling with her for a while and she had improved but today has been total hell

Im putting her to bed very early tonight see if tiredness is contributing to it, other than that I dont know what to do!

[Jenie]

emmatmg - dd telling me that she didn't want me to be angry anymore didn't exactly help it just made me feel sad that I was making her life seem so bad, imo a 4yr old shouldn't have to feel sad like that, and I was the one causing it, that's why I had to do other things than shout.

Agree with the finding things to do, but it isn't easy when you have a younger one to look after.

Good luck. Sending lots of cyber hugs your way as I know that when I was having problems that I just ended up feeling like a terrible parent when that was the last thing that I was trying to be.

[emmatmg]

Well all my efforts when he got home from school were pointless.
All kids love to help cook don't they? so I thought we'd have a nice big dinner with lots of prep work so that he(they) could help. I asked him to go and get changed out of his uniform and he said No,I asked again, and again No I don't want to. So I told him in a calm nice voice that I didn't want him to get his uniform dirty while we were cooking so please go and change. He said I don't mind if it gets dirty, so I said Okay but you will have to do the washing, Okay that fine was his reply.
Anyway when the prep was done and he hadn't joined in he said 'but I want to do it all' about 40 times to every answer I gave and I'm not exaggerating. So in the end I just shouted at him that if he had got changed he could have helped but he wouldn't so didn't join in.
This morning was just as bad, with me in tears because he simply would not do as I asked and I did ask, I didn't shout.

I feel like banging my head against a wall, I think that would be less painful.

[Jenie]

Things won't change straight away. Well done on finding an activity for him to join in with! If you ever feel the need you can email me.

It's not the end of the world that you ds wanted to do it all, that's what being 5 is all about, doing everything yourself even if it doesn't turn out right.

I let dd make rice crispy cakes at the weekend all by herself and what a mess! They didn't come out right either but she loved them because I hadn't helped. She did look very funny wearing the pot holder as she poured the barely melted choc on to the crispies

You're doing a great job by just trying.

[jmg]

Poor you - it does sound exasperating.

No real solutions - although the one that works with my DD and DS is counting. If I say I am going to count to 3, in my stern voice, they will always do what ever it is! I have absolutely no idea what they think will happen when I get to three - but it must be pretty bad in their mind!

Or how about time out - if I count to three and you still haven't done x then you will go in the hallway, to your room etc.

One child book I read did say that you should always give a consequnce of not doing something, i.e. if you do not get changed by the time the clock says x, then you will not be allowed to do Y.

Converesly, another book says that you should only focus on the positive, so if you get changed by the time the clock says x then I will let you do y (presumably said in a lovely excited voice)!!!

Have you got any parenting books you can look at - I did like the one by the chap who wrote toddler taming. I think he does one for older children too? Even if they don't have 'the answer' they might at least give you some extra ideas to try.

Good luck - do let us know how things are going.

[scoobysnax]

Here is an idea from a parenting manual I have read!

From memory, I think it goes like this - One tactic is to wait for him to pay attention before you speak, however long it takes, then only speak when you have eye contact and are quite physically close ie no shouting from another room in the house. Ask once in a normal voice and explain why you are asking and the consequences of both compliance and non-compliance with what you ask.

This school of thought is based on the idea that treating your son with respect is a good model for him - so shouting at him etc is setting the wrong scene for mutual respect.

I'd be interested to hear if this works in practice for you!

[aloha]

I think a big problem here is how upset you are getting in this situation. While he certainly sounds frustrating and irritating I am worried that you cry so much. Have you always been like this or is it possible you are depressed?

Is it possible that you could stop asking him to do so many things and therefore cut down his potential to say 'no'. For example, you might say, "when you've put on the jeans and t shirt on the bed (or whatever specific items) we'll make a cake together.' (I do think that it can be helpful to emphasise the positive and use a keep statements crystal clear so he knows exactly what is expected of him). That way if he says 'I don't want to", then you just say OK. Then if he says, "But I want to make the cake' you say, "Of course, when you've put on your t-shirt we will do it." Then make yourself busy doing something else. Don't descend to his level by arguing, pleading with him, giving long-winded explanations or begging - I think that gives a four year old too much power, and I'm not sure they like that. I really think it is important to let children feel the consequences of their actions as far as possible and to an age-appropriate degree. Eg refuse to eat dinner = feel hungry, not tidy away toys means they aren't available to play with next time (or whatever). Never threaten anything you won't carry through (ie I bet you and he both knew you didn't mean it about doing the washing!) I also think that the most important thing for your sanity is to refuse to let the situation upset you so much. If he refuses to change his uniform into something more suitable for cooking, well, then he doesn't cook and no cakes get made. If his behaviour doesn't wind you up so much he may well have less 'incentive' to do it. Also, pick your battles. If you don't actually care if he cooks in his uniform, don't bother asking him to change, if it does (and it probably would me, unless it was due a wash anyway) then make it clear, no changing means no cake.

[emmatmg]

aloha, that's exactly what I did last night, told him that once he was changed we could cook and I give him a choice so he cannot say No to one thing. Once the cooking was done and he started with the 'I want to do it all' thing I just ignored him, although he was freaking out screaming and shouting that he want to do it so I feel I didn't rise to him then but he still dgoes on and on and on. I know miricales(sp?) won't happen over night but just a little sign that I'm getting through would have been nice.
As for being depressed? well I only ever feel like this with him and that does make me feel sad that he has his effect on me. I suppose I cry because I'm frustrated that it's got to that stage again and that I can't see an end to it.

Scooby, I do always try and talk directly to him before the battle get really going so I'm not sure if thats going to work further or not. Totally understand the respect bit though

[Beccarollo]

Hi Emma
Please email me so we can talk more about the exasperations of this behaviour - I can SO relate to what your saying.

I rang my HV this morning about DD just to get a neutral opinion and some advice, she put me through to a Community Nursery Nurse who specialises in Behaviour and comes out to you every week and helps you to formulate a plan and provides materials and support - she cant come until January but she spent 35 minutes on the phone to me and it made me feel loads better. Reaffirming what I already know but it helped to talk and made me realise Megan is quite normal!
Maybe you could ask your HV about something similiar?

[Beccarollo]

Hi Emma
Please email me so we can talk more about the exasperations of this behaviour - I can SO relate to what your saying.

I rang my HV this morning about DD just to get a neutral opinion and some advice, she put me through to a Community Nursery Nurse who specialises in Behaviour and comes out to you every week and helps you to formulate a plan and provides materials and support - she cant come until January but she spent 35 minutes on the phone to me and it made me feel loads better. Reaffirming what I already know but it helped to talk and made me realise Megan is quite normal!
Maybe you could ask your HV about something similiar?

[emmatmg]

I was starting to think about HV Becca, as I seem to be answering all the lovely MNetters advise with been there, done that.

What annoys me is that I know that if I just chilled out abit and let him do whatever than my life and his would be so much easier BUT I feel like I'm un-doing all the rules and hard work thats I've bought him up by, he's obviously and popular and helpful boy at school and at other peoples houses( at a party recentlt one of the Mums told me he was wonderful and the best behaved there) so why can't he do it for me.

Maybe tonight will be better. Fingers crossed

[Jenie]

I've got my fingers crossed for you emmatmg.

Just to mention that my brothers always found it hard being the oldest because they had to break all of the rules 1st and got into more trouble than I did for being 2nd to bend/break rules.

[scoobysnax]

Maybe your ds is perfect all day at school and therefore has to concentrate his bad behaviour at home (it has to come out somewhere, and he knows you'll love him whatever he does!)

In which case, building in an unwind/ let off steam session to his day might help??? Maybe something physically active?
I remember I was guilty of the same behaviour as your son to some degree - being lovely at school and then letting it go at home...my behaviour is (still!) affected to an extent by my blood sugar levels which would normally be low after school - could this be similar for your son? And when are the worst times/ flashpoints for him?