Mumsnet Discussions - to regret giving my dd a gay packed lunch?

Thanks 2shoes, I actually find it easier to consider the issues calmly on here than in RL. More time to think I guess.

It would be so easy to fight fire with fire, but I sometimes think that's what those who deliberately derail or fail to acknowledge the point want, and it spoils the discussion.

I've learnt lots from the other posters on here about this. Sometimes I'm too close to the issues to see things objectively and I don't often get to discuss these things (they are just a 'given' amongst my friends so not much to talk about really) so I've really enjoyed it.

I also want those wavering or who are unsure about things to feel able to ask or seek clarification without feeling they are going to be attacked. Of course this can and should be done with courtesy!

I haven't always got my tone right on MN over the last year but I've learnt and try to resist the urge to pile in with 'what a fuckwit opinion', however tempting it may be at times.

Interesting stuff here under 'Generalized pejorative use' - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay

LeninGrad can I just say I really respect you, the way you have been so calm on this thread, well we should all learn from it.

OK, that was two things smile

, but one would have facilitated the other.

Good links Hope.

So, what's it all about then? Why do LGBT freak people out so much? We're mostly harmless.

I'm a very happy person (arf!). I have a good life. The single most important thing that could have happened to make my coming out easier though, would have been unconditional acceptance from my parents and an environment growing up that had some positive images and messages of LGBT people in it.

If parents and schools helped with these things now, I'm sure the next generation would be more likely to get this acceptance.

Glad you and dd chuckled about it tho Fotherington-Thomas

I think Leningrad posted info about the stats (see Wed Jul 1 posts) which back up that homophobic bullying is on the increase, or certainly distressingly prevalent, but for those that dismiss the issue by saying 'it's just kids':

Parents angered by school play that tells kids 'it's OK to be gay' "According to the Drill Hall, the play was written specifically to deal with the problem of homophobic bullying in schools, which it claims is growing as "gay" becomes increasingly used as a term of abuse to describe anything "from not liking sport to wearing the wrong trainers".

There are plenty of other negative words than 'gay' available for a child of average vocabulary to choose.

Fair enough Bloss. Don't get how you can do that (how do you switch feelings off and on?), but that's life really - other people's heads are a mystery!

Leningrad - I agree. It's not the issue.

serenity - I assure you, these two are quite adamant that it was an exercise of choice. As they are respectively in the 40s and 50s, I think they have the maturity to know their own motivation...

Sorry if this has already been posted - I have been reading the thread (really!) but may have missed this:

That's So Gay

Another one

I would quibble with it being a choice. You either find the same sex attractive or not. I get that you can choose whether to act on that, but I think the underlying attraction is something that's just there.

Did you see The Wright Stuff this morning? They were discussing this very issue.

One of the parents who phoned in wasn't even prepared to talk to her son about homosexuality let alone explain why he shouldn't use the word gay. Her son was eight, perfectly old enough to understand but she wasn't willing to discuss it.

This to me just reinforces that we need more education around this, from primary level.

Irrespective of the choice issue though, it's still about not targeting people who are different.

Viktoria - I have at least two gay friends who say it has been a choice. One has changed her mind! The other has not...

yep grand, im on now

deffo....i hate anything like that, picking on other people for whatever reason...not good....

ds2 keeps drawing swimming pools...i'm not worried that he'll grow into David Hockney....live and let live!

anyway..dude.. trying to add yr new email now ok....

yeah i know that punky, but if it was my kids throwing insults, calling names whatever i'd come down on them like a tonne of shit
i wouldnt say oh just kids being kids and shrug and leave it, dykwim

tbh harley....kids call other kids loads of things don't they...fat, nerd, loser, endless list really.....it's not right, but that's school life for alot of people.

'It's just kids being kids. I can think of much worse insults.'

oh well thats ok then
hmm

have you actually read any of this thread?

Whether there are worse insults or not is irrelevant, and 'just kids being kids' is horribly complacent. My kids can 'just be kids' without actually insulting anyone, they're far from perfect and generally a pita, so it can't be that difficult.

Look, obviously some children are just using the phrase because they've heard it in the playground - they're not trying to be more offensive than throwing random insults usually is, but it is an offensive term (used in this context) and it is perpetuating a deeply embedded prejudice against homosexuality. It's our duty as adults to try and discourage it, for the reason that have listed and linked to above (or below, depending on how you've set up your MN!)

If you (generally, not any particular poster) think that some of us are over reacting, then fine, but at least accept that a lot of people do find it offensive, and for that reason tell your children not to use it. It doesn't hurt you not to say it, but it hurts an awful lot of people when you do.

It's just kids being kids. I can think of much worse insults.

I think tbh we confused the issue a bit back in the day. In our attempts to portray who we are positively many of us very much took up the valid choice argument. I guess we didn't want to feel we were victims of our genes/hormones/brain design or whatever it is that may or may not be found to be the key to sexuality. I think there was/is also a very real fear that if a 'cause' were to be found and tested for in utero, we'd be aborted.

There were many women who choose lesbianism from a political stance too but I'm not entirely sure how that panned out for them all. Obviously, if you can free yourself from social mores, people from both genders hold appeal, but I think it's largely true that most of use tend towards one gender or the other. Great if you don't and genuinely happen across whoever, whenever but I fall into the 100% lesbian category. Well, maybe 99.9%...

Over the years I've come to accept that I probably was born this way and that's just the way it is.

Ask your pupils if other mammals observed to pair up with a 'mate' from the same sex made a conscious choice to do so smile

Ah I guessed right then! Of course, we're all masochists as well as queer wink

LG, the reason my pupils give for them thinking its okay to use gay in a negative way, but totally unacceptable to use words pertaining to disability or race is because (wait for it...) ...people CHOOSE to be gay, but can't choose a disability or race or gender. And yes, I have had numerous discussions about this, but many still believe that being gay is a lifestyle choice. (SIGH)

So the interesting thing is how come those terms have become increasingly unacceptable, not totally unused unfortunately, but the pejorative use of gay hasn't? Those terms were pretty common currency when I was growing up, but gay as an insult wasn't. Lesbian, poof and bender were but they were considered to be fairly strong. There was still a fair amount of discomfort around anything to do with sexuality tbh.

Has the LGBT lobby been more vocal than the disability lobby? Is it that the word gay was taken on board positively but there is no equivalent 'slang'/adotpion in the disability world? Or is is that people with disabilities are not perceived to have a 'choice' about their difference where gay people still are?

Or have the milder forms of the phrase taken root in schools precisely because we're still pretty invisible in that environment. I can't imagine many kids have the courage to be out but there seem to be some/more than in my day which you think would help put a stop to this.

I'm heartily amused by onager's defence of me against a non-existent attack. The fact that no-one actually did take offence shows that the 'word police' are not the unreasonable knee jerkers you claim onager.

I didn't use the words -- I mentioned them. I apologised only because they are rather sickening to see, and felt rather sickening to type.

A bit of a weaselly way of failing to address what I said onager??

Well ss, it's only been about three posters who feel their rights are being infringed by others preferring this phrase/meaning weren't used. The overwhelming majority not only see it for what it is, but actively discourage it and explain why and that is worth its weight in gold.

I'll repost some of the homophobic bullying in schools info later. That's the real issue for me; not having yet another generation of LGBT people growing up thinking there is something wrong with them and being the targets for hateful attitudes.

Agree that this has been one of the most interesting, informative and measured threads I've participated in on MN. Have really enjoyed talking with everyone (mostly!)

Now I've heard everything!
Sounds like the kids need to be sectioned to me!!
Could she have heard them wrong? Anyway, they need to get a life as the saying goes!

How can a lunch be gay? Does the peanut butter sandwich only fancy other peanut butter sandwiches, as opposed to cheese sandwiches? Kids can be cruel, and rather stupid.

'word police'?
a DM phrase if ever I heard one.
'there are none so blind as those who will not see'

Instead of quoting a daft thread about custard cream bicuits, wish Time magazine would have used this thread as an example of the debate that goes on on MN.

LeninGrad - you have put your point of view across so eloquently. Gawd knows how people think they have an argument, but still. You certainly have more patience that I have smile

LG, I fear that you are right that there is little that can persuade onagar who is now being beyond obtuse.

You have said before that you have found this thread encouraging for some of the responses on it but I must admit to finding it incredibly depressing.

It never entered my head that we would need to have a discussion on whether or not using gay as an insult was offensive or not ... I get that some people might never have thought about it or considered it (although still a little hmm

at that) but would have thought that anyone who had their attention drawn to the issue for more than half a second would be appalled that they had ever thought about using it. Truly defies belief.

Guvk showed words to describe people with disabilities that are considered derogatory to contrast with what we are talking about here. They were in context to demonstrate a perfectly valid point and in no way could be construed to mean he or she supported the use of them. That is not the same as we're discussing here where the phrase is used thoughtlessly and perjoratively. It's comes down to simply stating whether you think it is ok to use the word gay in a negative context or not. If you do, and are not persuaded by any of the arguments here, then there is probably little else I can do to persuade you otherwise.

Not much time right now, but I just want to post in support of guvk who did not mean to cause offense with her use of banned (by the word police) words (she apologised at the time).

I know many will claim the words have power despite her innocent use of them to illustrate a point. Some may well have been offended and will claim that she was offensive if they were offended. They may claim that children (or impressionable adults) might see and repeat the words. None of that would be fair. Govk was right to use them in that context. It was what she meant by using them that mattered.

That's really interesting KnK. When I hear this expression from adults the first thing I think is that we're not at school, then I'm annoyed they're talking about something that is crap. My las thought is hang on, I've been out for years, arenKt you a bit embarrassed to us that in front of me. So I challenge it and it stops, until the next time! It's incredible this has taken such a hold when lots of other words for other groups are more obviously and actively discouraged.

For parents (of teenagers) who are interested the following programmes are really good:

www.channel4.com/programmes/coming-out-to-class

www.channel4.com/programmes/batty-man

They both challenge the use of the word gay and homophobia in general. I know I mentioned them earlier, but I really can't recommend them enough as discussion springboads.

Wow what a fab discussion!

My 11 year old daughter used this word the other day, now I have always always taught her that it's fine to be gay or straight or whatever and she is a big music fan particularly musicals so the likes of John Barrowman are people she looks up to. She's way more mature in that respect than a lot of her peers.

Anyway I asked her why she had said it and she said 'I dunno it's just what people say'. I said but it's implying that being gay is a bad thing by using it in that way. She doesn't see it as being associated with actual homosexuality, it's just a word people use.

I've told her not to say it again anyway but when they are surrounded by kids saying it then it's diffucult for them not to pick up on it.

On another note, DDs friend went through year 5 being labelled a 'lesbian' (definite gay insult) because she was close friends with another girl????

Oh and my DS is 13 and has been labelled gay a few times because he doesn't like football..

I have to say that a lot/most of the prejudices come from the parents. If every single parent sat down with their child at a young age and told them that everyone is different, and being gay isn't a bad thing, just a different thing, same for race the world would be a nicer friendlier place.

My Mum works at a secondary school and interestingly one year a few of the popular girls decided they were lesbians and several others followed, apparently it became quite cool to walk around holding hands with each other and even kissing in the school yard....

Thanks serenity. I'm really enjoying the analysis and input of others, these things are such a given for me that it's really good to see others' considered perspectives.

Also, I didn't 'seize' on the use of it here. It was there, I commented on it and a really good discussion has ensued which is great.

LeninGrad, can I just say that your continued patience and graciousness on this thread is pretty damn amazing?

Also it is really not about seeking attention, but rather about seeking common ground and understanding. That can only happen with open discussion and debate.

I find some of your posts really blunt Onager, especially the one saying that if people don't understand something the way you see it, they shouldn't have an opinion. Alienating sentiments like that are really unhelpful. I wonder if you talk to people like that in RL or if it's just how your written word comes across sometimes.

Onager's reference to the constant changing of terms to describe disability is very interesting. There has been a strategy among those who need to refer often to disabilities -- the strategy has been to abandon terms that have become abused by those who would use them offensively.

So when, onager, you are 'sniffily' informed of a language evolution (a new term for a disability), the evolution has been caused by the offensive new meanings -- that in the case of 'gay' you call legitimate new meanings. If you don't like that kind of flux in disability language, then you would surely want to help preserve the non-insult meanings from degenerating into insult.

LGBT people have I think purposely avoided the strategy of abandoning terms that get hijacked as insults. Eg. re-colonising words like 'queer'. So if you don't like being sniffliy informed about language evolution, it seems sensible to go along with the lgbt strategy of fighting for certain words to remain free of hate.

Exactly right saintmaybe. Onager says himself that ords have a history and a context. The history and context of 'gay' as insult is derogatory and offensive. The history of the much earlier use of gay as happy has no offinsive or derogatory history so it is inoffensive, so Onager's point about the film-showing fails.

But onager, that's the point. Words don't mean one thing printed in a dictionary, they have a history and a context

Gay is being used in a derogatory way as a result of it being used by homosexual people to descibe themselves

So of course it's homophobic and offensive

And so how can it be ok?

And you are very unclear. I say this in a spirit of helpfulness, not attention-seeking.

I have no problem with gay being used to mean happy. It's not its most common usage nowadays but is legitimate and positive.

I really don't have to go looking for negative, perjorative, objectionable things to make a fuss about, there are plenty around.

Your posts are increasingly offensive Onager re: "I'm also saying since I have been accused of being unclear that Leningrad and some others leap on these things and make them out to be about them as an attention seeking device." Really, I'm just seeking attention? How very childish of me, will desist post haste for fear of further offending your delicate sensibilities on this matter.

I'm also saying since I have been accused of being unclear that Leningrad and some others leap on these things and make them out to be about them as an attention seeking device.

According to this reasoning if you put on an old film or read an old book which has the word gay in it meaning 'happy' then it would be offensive because someone would be offended. You could then sue the writer and maybe protest outside his house for his obvious homophobia.

Some of you would think that. Others might argue that it was different because the writer didn't know that the word would acquire an extra meaning later. But that assumes that each time a word gets an extra meaning all english speakers are informed of the change.

Since the words for medical issues have been mentioned lets use that as an example. I've been sniffily informed on here that "we don't call it THAT anymore - it's offensive. We say xxxxx"

Only for someone to chime in and say "oh but don't call it xxxxx any more, we consider that offensive"

So there is not even agreement among those who spend all day thinking about the words.

I'm not saying ignorance is an excuse. I'm saying there is nothing to excuse. I'm saying that the language is not just one thing printed in a dictionary and most words have multiple meanings anyway. If you haven't realised that then you are not yet an english speaker and hardly entitled to an opinion.

Good points both. I always end up questioning myself and thinking maybe I am being too sensitive when met with an absolute refusal to concede that that even the tiniest amount of hurt might be being caused by someone else, grr! Wouldn't dream of being so inflammatory, rude or hurtful in a response, so unnecessary.

Onager, 'other side of the fence' was just a figure of speech, but I did make the assumption that you and others who vigorously defend the right to say and mean whatever you like when employing this phrase/word were heterosexual, sorry if that isn't the case. I'm all for breaking down barriers, not building them up or reinforcing them.

It's offensive to use gay as a way of slagging someone / something off. Surely that's all there is to it?

I have had this conversation so many times with teenagers, but never expected adults to question its offensiveness. I have been on training days for teachers where it has been made very clear that any use of the word in a pejorative way is to be treated as any other sign of prejudice and that adults who are in care of young people and turn a blind eye to its usage are corroborating in the prejudice.

I have had the discussion with kids about how they would feel if their usage of the word gay was interchanged with the word "black" or "Christian" or "Turkish", as in "Those trainers are so Turkish man," or "Oh my God, you're so stupid you must be black," they are appalled at this thought. For those people who think that gay now means rubbish or crap, would you have so readily accepted this had kids been using one of these alternatives? I really hope not. But if not, then why is "gay" accepted in this way?

I always think it is interesting how many people fundamentally believe that their right to be offensive is far more important that anyone else's right not to be offended.

Now in some cases that may be true, when someone is holding very odd views or behaving very strangely. But mostly I do think that the small restriction in changing the way your phrase things on occasion is not a huge concession to pay.

Really interesting stuff guvk, thanks. It never ceases to amaze me how people would rather get obscure and semantic than just engage at face-level. It makes it far easier to just completely ignore what the other person is saying which isn't really the point of a discussion. I guess you can only raise awareness in those who want to be aware.

Actually the insult-use of several disability terms should on Onager's account be unoffensive. Spaz, mong, flid (apologies for even typing these) have a more-and-more hidden origin precisely because they forced the people to stop using certain terms to describe disabilities. In that sense the insults have been severed from their history altogether. Does that make any of them ok? Would you let your children use any of those terms onager?

Well if the thread has made people think that the use of gay to mean uncool/rubbish/crap/broken/naff might be causing offence and is best avoided, then that's good.

A very positive and affirming word adopted by gay people, ironically to get away from some of the medical and abusive terms previously used about us, is being used in a negative and derogatory way and that's a shame.

I didn't actively look for this phrase to be used at work three times in the last year or so in order to take offence, but it was and I did.

I think it's fine to point this out, ponder the issues and leave people to choose whether to be more considerate or not.

You don't have to be on the look out for the opportunity to play the martyr to find the new usage of 'gay' offensive. It is horribly homophobic surely, in the ears of any adult.

Onager do you actually disbelieve that the use of the word to mean 'rubbish' 'uncool' has its origin in the denigration of some males by calling their 'insufficient masculinity' gay -- that originally it meant 'you are feminine like a homosexual is therefore you are rubbish'?

Have you never come across this sort of use of gay as an insult? Do you have an alternative account of the origin of the 'uncool' usage?

Since the origin of the current usage is still transparent to most people, the word is offensive in exactly the same way as the insult-use of 'spastic'. Even if the origin became utterly occluded it would still be offensive because of the historical association.

Sure, words acquire new meanings. Sometimes they do this in a hate-filled way, so the resulting usage is hateful.

I think there would have been no offense if some people hadn't been actively looking for it.

I also think that the 'fence' mentioned previously used to be like the Berlin Wall - ugly, hateful and impassable.

I think we did our best to get it down to a garden fence that you could at least look over and maybe chat to your neighbour on the other side.

I don't think it helps if people keep pointing to the fence and reminding everyone that there are two sides. Maybe you think that using the word does that, but no one was even thinking about gender preference at the time. They are now.

I'm confident that linguists take the line that the meaning of word is the meaning that most people understand it to have.
So, for example no good me deciding that 'gay' means 'startling' (which is what Humpty Dumpty would do.
It's reasonable to say, then that are 3 meanings of the word gay
1. Happy, pleasant etc
2. Homosexual
3. Naff, uncool etc.
Now, the problem arises because for reasons given earlier the third meaning has arisen because of the second meaning, ie homosexuality is regarded by some idiots as undesirable ....and possibly that it's a sort of 'broken' masculinity. I'm sure there must be a technical term for this migration of meaning but if I ever knew it I've forgotten now.
But, while not denying that 'gay' now has this third meaning, that doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge it's use, since that is clearly insulting and offensive. And wouldn't you like to avoid giving offense?

I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about here Onager, but again question the openness of those who use deliberately inflammatory language (ashamed, martyr) to understanding things from this side of the fence in a discussion about consideration around the use of language.

<is tempted to throw disingenuous in but someone already got there first and claimed the 10 points>

To paraphrase your wonderland line some people say "when I hear a word it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less"

I still assert that using the word gay to mean uncool/dull is at best thoughtless and inconsiderate and at worst, contributing to an environment where stronger forms of homophobia can flourish/take hold.

You either accept this, or you don't.

Well if you are saying that what a word meant first is what counts regardless of intent then you are saying it means 'happy' and not something to do with sexual preference.

It's had three meanings that I know of, but some want to pick the one that causes them offense so they can play the martyr.

'when I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less'
OK if you live in Wonderland, not OK elsewhere!

Probably from me, but not sure of the connection with eggs

aha!
I remember where I have heard this line of reasoning before!
Humpty Dumpty.

Well if you mean my post you might be missing sarcasm. Words change in meaning and what people mean by them depends on their intent and on context. In the case of the lunch box it was about it being dull/uncool which is one meaning. It was clearly not the start of a full scale assault on the rights of people who have a different gender preference.

LG, I would be running out of patience if I were you.
Or am I missing a joke again?

Anyone using gay to mean a sexual preference. After all according to this thread if a word meant something once it always does mean that thing - right?

So that means it actually means 'happy' since it once did.

Who should be ashamed Onager, why?

I use to be gay. Especially at parties or on sunny spring days when life just seemed so good.

I think it's in bad taste to try and pretend it's a sexual term and you should be ashamed of yourself.

thank god I move in such restricted circles, have not come across that one!

I own that T-shirt - have not been seen in public with it though

Men who wear it are just grim and slogan is on par with "remember my name you'll be screaming it later"

yesterday I saw a man wearing a t shirt that said
dip me in chocolate and throw me to the lesbians
...and was very confused, had always seen this on women before and assumed them to be lesbians...
have I been misconstruing it or was he, massively??

M pi - To be fair it was a long time ago and it deal with the behaviour because he stopped calling evryone and everthing Gay - someone was doing it him and he realised he didn't like it so maybe other's didn't either. Believe me - more conventional methods had been tried.

you killed a snake, rupert?

overheard ds1 (12) with about 6 friends, girls and boys, a couple of weeks ago, someone said 'lesbian' as an insult. Ds1 said v clearly, 'there is NOTHING wrong with being lesbian or gay. We have a lot of gay friends' Cue silence, then friends making a lot of conciliatory backtracking noises.

Proud, moi?

littleoldme - "we they graffittied the desk he sat at in about 5 class classrooms with XXXXX is gay"

So let me get this straight. You failed to deal with his behaviour so you chose the path of calling him names. You were doing it with far more knowledge of the bigger picture than he had. That makes you far, far worse than him, no?

Is this sort of punishment handed out regularly in your school?

Good post Rupert.

Ta dp

All too true Rupert. This was all this was ever about I think, showing some awareness, consideration and sensitivity.

Things sound like harmless banter unless you're part of the group being insulted though, and you are feeling discriminated against for being in that group. If I was gay I wouldn't think everybody calling everything uncool "gay" was funny at all.

And I do think this is one way children learn to be prejudiced. I told my children the other day that I would only take the eldest to see Coraline as it was too scary for the others. My youngest son, aged 3, said: "well you'll be too scared then, because you're a girl". Where on Earth did he get that idea, at 3? And he saw me kill a poisonous snake the other day, so it's definitely not that he just thinks I'm a wuss grin

It's not that difficult to eliminate all of this kind of discriminatory language from your vocabulary, just by thinking about doing it and noticing when you say anything discriminatory. We should all do it, and make our children do it too. It doesn't mean you have to become all prissy and boring.

like your taste in music hoochie

<leers at dp> <assumes Joey from Friends voice>

How you doin'?

Got bored when the bickering started so only read the first few pages.

Was wondering has anyone come across the word gay used to mean happy/cheerful recently? I don't mean rereading Enid Blyton, I mean having been used recently.

LG, you know i can kinda understand bi-sexuals...always like to keep my options open..ha ha ha

There's nothing to 'cure', it's not a sickness.

*note lack of swearing in post, and be glad you can't hear original reaction chez serenity*

That's an easy one, no. Next. wink

watching the big questions atm...should you try and "cure" homosexuals?

And a fitted girlie one - my mission is complete

Fantastic, I'll have three!

Remember the old 'NIKE Just Do IT' slogan with a tick? I used to have one with 'DYKE Just Do It' on smile

Lol, hoochie, bet there is one!

It is my new mission to get a t-shirt bearing the slogan Homophobia Is Gay.

<runs off to google furiously>

Can't believe you got away with that loe!

Kazzi, the trouble with the 'minority groups are just too sensitive and can't take a joke' argument is that it means you never have to really listen to what we're saying.

Also, being told you're exacerbating things by talking about the least worst examples and whether they facilitate the worst behaviours does that too. It can effectively lead to just silencing us. For many people, my very existence is too much for them so what am I to do?

I do agree with you re: the difference between banter and bullying, but primarily amongst the groups affected, not from those a bit more outside, unless you are very good friends. I don't feel that most examples of what we're talking about in schools fall into that category.

I do feel you and one or two others could have been a bit conciliatory and toned down some of the sentiments you expressed too though. Then we could have all put this point to bed a long time ago and carried on discussing the origins of homophobia and how to tackle it, which was getting really interesting.

A teacher I once knew taught a kid who called everything gay. A group of teachers who taught him amd were getting annoyed by it decided to take action so we they graffittied the desk he sat at in about 5 class classrooms with XXXXX is gay. When he complained he was told that he talking about it so much people has obviously drawn their own conclusions! It stopped very quckly

Professional - no. Effective and quite amusing - yes.

LOL fair enough *hand shakes* I am a very defensive person, I have my reasons for this and wont ever change

quits

I can accept that you felt my posts were childish

I felt yours were egocentric and overly defensive

so I suppose we are quits grin

LOL nah I respect your view and I respect you stand up for what you believe in.....even if I dont necessarily share the same views

I dont make enemies lifes too short, and nah I dont think you followed me onto the weaning topic although I do think your posts directed at me on there were very childish and nothing at all to do with the topic.

I personally believe bullying and banter is different.....and I hate the thought that we would have to live in a world free of banter because we have to walk on egg shells around sensitive people, that was my view now im outta here before I get set upon again

to be fair I did call her an ignorant bigot, which I apologise for

I was angry about being called a bully, because I don't think I am a bully

forceful and sometimes abrasive, but not a bully

I also think Kazzi thinks I followed her onto the weaning thread to be nasty, which I didn't - I always click on those threads because my ds2 was ^failure to thrive" and it was bloody terrifying, and I don't think early weaning is a safe solution to low weight gain

but hey ho, MN is so big now it's impossible to avoid making enemies

and I have no intention of avoiding certain posters because I know they dislike me, or toning down my opinions

I don't think Kazzi should do so either grin

Anyway I'm really bored of this thread now, as I said I gave my view if people cant accept that people actually think differently and theres nothing wrong with this then that aint my problem.

Back to the OP......of it was meant as a bullying statement then I hope it gets sorted

I'm not ranting at all???? Why am I hard done by? Just stated my opinion and people got on their high horses and lynch mobbed me just for thinking differently. Theres certainly no aggression unless people are reading it the wrong way, but that aint my fault if they do so.

Its worth saying that earlier on this thread other people put across different views and challenged mine but they did it without the belittling and nastiness, someone asked me a question, I answered it, they didnt agree and all hell broke loose (on their part not mine but I'm not gonna lie down and take ppl talking crap to me eg telling me my opinion is wrong) opinions are neither right or wrong thats why theyre called opinions not facts.

kazzi i haven't seen the other thread but i do think you are being unneccesarily agressive.

maybe your point is wrong, maybe it is right. but i don't care what it is because you are ranting about being hard done by.

Nope just this and the other one Hercules.....where people have got on their high horses for no reason I'm afraid

Check out the relationship/domestic violence pages etc and you'll see that I give respect to people who deserve it

Kazzi - you seem to be accusing everyone of the same thing on threads tonight.

LOL dont think so Fishy.....read the whole thread....see the names she called me then please post again

actually that wasnt aimed at just you but at a few of you who started ganging up because u can't accept something different, apart from the hypocrisy coz you spout one thing then go and do the very thing you just condemned, likewise I'm not really bothered what anyone thinks of me.....I'm proud to have a mind of my own and not jump on bandwagons just to be part of the majority

Nice speaking to ya now goodbye

round of applause for you greensleeves. whatever your point might have been kazzi79 you have lost it.

bully, hypocrite, stupid, pathetic, no sense of humour

don't get me wrong, I couldn't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what you think of me (using the word "think" in the broadest possible sense) but you aren't showing yourself in a very good light here hmm

the names I called you personally are....?

I think you've called me rather a lot of names, though.

And I think you are kidding yourself if you really think you are capable of resp[onding to disagreement without being hysterical and rude. I haven't seen you do that yet.

yeh and the majority of those posts were to disagree with me LOL and you have the absolute right to disagree with me.....it doesnt make you right or wrong and it doesnt make me right or wrong, everyones entitled to different opinions but you dont need to start bullying name calling just because you dont agree, likewise you cant speak up for everyone else on here, theres actually only you thats replied in a nasty way....whilst others have questionned my view they havent been nasty about it.

I've said what I've got to say on the matter....bullying and banter are completely different, so I'll leave you to pick a pathetic argument with the next person who god forbid has a different opinion to you!

Is it not? That would be why only six of the 400 posts are mine then wink

I'm entitled to my opinion, you're entitled to yours....we dont share the same opinions but then the world would be boring if everyone was the same.

I only made a point about bullying and banter being 2 different things....again as on other threads some people cant seem to accept a difference of opinion!

Heres a newsflash.....this thread aint all about you either luv!

Had I wished to "belittle" you it would have been a lot more obvious

although I think I would have had my work cut out hmm

the thread is, strangely enough, not all about you

I responded to your posts which struck me as ridiculous as well as offensive

you seem very agitated though, perhaps you should consider stepping away for some deep breaths and a cool drink?

No it wasnt it was a deliberate attempt to belittle someone! It aint my fault if people on here need to chill the fk out coz they make mountains out of molehills! You create the very problems that you say your trying to avoid, the pathetic cries on here from you just end up being counter productive! I dont give a shit if hundreds of people with no sense of humour and take life too seriously want to disagree with me, I never said anyone had to agree with me......coz unlike certain people on this thread I accept that people are entitled to think differently even if others dont agree....so I suggest you piss yourself laughing back into your world of hypocrisy, if anyones the ignorant bigot its YOU!!!! You have a problem accepting a difference of opinion, stupid and pathetic IMO!!!

no, the "pmsl" was because your post about harmless insults made me laugh

pmsl means "I am laughing", not "I am aiming to make everyone else laugh"

but crying "bully" is fairly similar to crying "I'm a persecuted minority" (ironically enough" or "PC gorn mad"

You're an ignorant bigot, my dear - that's why people are disagreeing with you

but if you prefer to huff and puff and claim that you are being "ganged up on", by all means knock yourself out hmm

I agree homophobia is bound up with misogynistic attitudes too.

Great editorial in The Guardian today:

"Prejudice (and much worse) against gay and lesbian people is one of the most widespread human rights abuses on the planet."

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/04/labour-gay-rights-chris-bryant

Gosh been a couple of days since I last posted so will try and keep reply as short as I can

To the person who asked if I was calling them a bully....YES I AM! Why? Because my opinion (which I have a right to) is in the minority on this topic and you....knowing full well you have the backing of people with similar opinions as you (ie the majority) deliberately took something I said and wrote pmsl at the end in what I feel was an attempt to belittle me (in other words trying to raise a laugh from others at my expense and also classed as ganging up). Does it bother me?.....not at all coz I aint getting on my high horse about it just saying stop being hypocritical by doing something that you're trying to condemn! (Interesting how many people do that on this sites discussion topics theres no need for the aggression when someone has a different point of view!)

The person who asked how I know my cousin doesnt mind being referred to as lezza? Because my family are always up for a laugh and are chilled out and she was the first person to call herself lezza.....she see's it as something to be proud of not something to have a silly spoilt brat temper tantrum about!

I know many people on here don't agree with my view and you're perfectly entitled not to.....again I wont lose sleep over it, but I still can't see the big deal if it was meant as banter, if it was meant as a form of bullying thats a different matter and the school should deal with it accordingly.

And even if the children don't know better, we do ....

micra

"nothing to do with sexuality"??

i can promise you that when it was used 30 years ago (agh, i'm old) in the playground we all knew that it was very much an insult based on sexuality.

Oh my now am starting to get dizzy- this thread is going round in circles!

Am amazed at the amount of posters who think it has "nothing to do with sexuality".

Bah!

"Gay" has been around as an insult in primary schools for ages, it's not new. Sort of means "uncool", "rubbish", "Weird", but nothing to do with sexuality.

Not exactly a healthy, non-teeth rotting, balanced meal for lunch though was it?

that is an interesting insight, guvk, and quite persuasive as lesbian/dyke what ever hasn't migrated in meaning and if used as an insult deliberately suggests someone is gay.
Or, it might be that lesbians are relatively less visible ....and so ....mmm, can't quite figure that one out.

Lenin, I can remember some girls getting taunts of 'lesbian' when I was at school in the 70s. It was directed at girls who weren't bothering with make-up, fashion, obsessing about boys. That was a period when feminists were often called 'lesbian' as a way of distorting and demeaning their refusal to endorse a particular image of what it was to be a woman.

So in those days I think that the use of a homophobic remark as an insult was influenced by misogyny, perhaps even as much misogynistic as it was homophobic.

And as I said before I think that in origin the use of 'gay' to mean 'rubbish' is to do with males dismissing 'feminine' males as 'gay', so involves despising something thought of as female.

Attitudes towards women seem to be very bound up in these homophobic insults.

*Barrel of Monkeys*
It was in widespread use in Canada in the mid/late 1970s.

So your food was happy and frivolous then grin

LG - iswym. Yes probably true.
Nooka - I thoroughly agree with you. It is up to parents/carers to talk through these issues with their children and challenge bigoted language before it becomes habitual/entrenched. Imo a lot of people are too casual about this kind of thing.

Thanks for that link LeninGrad. I had an interesting chat with dd about it. I'm afraid that she initially thought people shouldn't tell anyone if they were gay. It was great to see Phyllida Lloyd on the list as she loves Mamma Mia, so that was a good focus point for our conversation. She thought it very wrong that I said John Barryman was sexy! She then told me that ds wanted to be gay when he grew up (I suspect this is just about avoiding girls though).

I think that there are a lot of people who think it's OK to be gay so long as no one else has to know about it. So probably lots of latent homophobic outrage coming to the fore with the increased visibility. I don't think that so many children would be homophobic if their parents weren't either openly anti-gay or just "don't like to talk about that sort of thing". All of our children do or say thoughtless things at time, but parents should be there to get them to think about what they say and what they mean.

LL - I'm kind of thinking that no-one would even utter the various words for describing gay people a generation or two ago but since gay pride and rights for LGBT people have been implemented, and many people are out now, it's much more known about. Maybe that increase in visibility has made us an easier group to target.

Glad the Stonewall posters are helping to make a difference.

We had this at Guides a while ago,

"That's sooooo gay"
" You're sooooo gay"

Luckily lots of posters went up all around town with "Some people are gay, get over it"
on them and the local high schools did some diversity training, seems to have helped a lot.

We also told them that if they wanted to "Diss" any sector of society they would not be welcome in our organisation,

DD has several gay friends in their late teens, all of whom have suffered homophobic abuse at school and elsewhere - but I've heard them all refer to things/situations as gay. I'm not sure if they are 'reclaiming the word', or really just not seeing the connection...

LG - what did you mean by more visibility [dim pregnant lady emoticon]

Ah no, quite a bit later than those movements, could still be a reaction though.

That's really interesting BOM, thanks. I still think it should be pointed out that many people find it offensive. Hopefully a new word for 'not cool' will come along instead.

Or maybe we'll all grow up and stop giving a crap about what people think about our hair, appearance, clothes, trainers, food, likes/dislikes etc which is what underpins these comments/judgements.

Agree we need to focus on the targeted and horrific homophobic bullying but I really do think this facilitates that.

This does all coincide with the evolving of the gay rights movement which could be significant/relevant. Interesting that the use of 'bitch' and 'slag' kicked off at the same time as the feminist movement too. I blame the parents [joke].

Oops, sorry that should be 1980s.

Apparently around as a playground insult since the 1970s according to BBC report

Definitely not right that it started with South Park. It was around when I was at school about 15 years ago, which pre-dates South Park.

LG, I understand from some of the posts above that it started as something from South Park - is that right?

I do agree with some of the posters here that a lot of the kids using it do not mean it as a homophobic insult. I think making people (children and it appears adults too) aware of the offence caused by using it is the key way to solve this issue and I would hope that it will die down albeit not as quickly as we would hope. The vast majority of the people on this thread needed no convincing that it was offensive and wouldn't let their children use it. I suspect that - as others suggested above - other lingo (hopefully inoffensive but we can only hope) will replace it over time. Hopefully sooner rather than later if parents and teachers step in.

I wonder if the reason for this is precisely because we have more visibility nowadays. Maybe it'll settle down in a few more years?

Ds (just turned 5) came home the other night and said "Oh that's sooooo gay". I was totally flabbergasted initially, then quite angry and sad. So young to be learning such bigoted language. I told him not to say it again. Then I got "why" - repeatedly. First I said, "cos it's rude and offensive". The whys continued. Then he wanted to know what gay means. So I told him. And I asked him how he would feel if someone mocked his colour or something else personal about him that he can't change. Told him we are all equal but different. He soon got the message and agreed it was offensive. He picked it up from another boy in his class. Very sad that kids in Reception are using these kind of homophobic insults.

MissSunny, bi and trans

We are concentrating on the thread, MissSunny - it's you who isn't.

And you're obfuscating. At the time of your post the thread was discussing the use of the word gay as an insult and your post was on the same subject.

oh bum

pass remarkable wazz

not the same, is it

fuckn ell, guy wink

. Do you really want me to answer, you --pass-remarkable-- --wazz-?

HAve not read the whole thread, but YABU to gieve her such a carbo loaded lunch grin

how about more protein (tiny bit only in peanut butter) and some fresh fruit...

I had no idea VM. I blame having DS for my shocking lack of attention to these matters of world import (couldn't get through a paper for some time). And not discovering MN until about this time last year.

LG - Alan Duncan - oh yes, my friend used to go out with him, but in true MP style AD ended up with not just a constituency home and a London home, but also a constituency boyfriend and a London boyfriend. Boo.

We've all worked together for so long we mostly sit in silence with headphones on now - thank god for iTunes I say! There was a mat leave cover going, but it's gone smile

I just don't like peanut butter sandwiches, and find dried apricots boring. The rest is alright though. Not hugely exciting, but not 'gay'.

hey LG...must be a pretty wild place you work at if they haven't noticed a pregnant lesbian!...any jobs going?

Hey TA, dp and harleyd, yes, love the surprise on people's faces now I'm down to two quite tight-fitting T-shirts and my bump is getting bigger and bigger so it's impossible to miss or mistake for weight gain.

There's still people at work who didn't know and I finish in two weeks, can't believe people don't gossip more. I'm a pg lesbian goddamit, if you can't gossip about that, what is there to gossip about?! I blame working mostly with men, half of them haven't even noticed smile

When I was teaching, all the kids called each other gay as a derogatory term and anything lame was also called gay. I don't like it at all.

yeah stillstanding...its being used round here atm in the same way as 'thats so gay', tho possibly more in a sarcastic way..and perhaps taking the piss out of those who use 'thats so gay'

i know that theres no underlying insult really, compared to the gay phrase

ds1 actually called a pizza gay last week because it had mushrooms on it hmm

??..which resulted in a conversation about how stupid people made themselves look when they used words incorrectly
i also pulled him for calling one of his mates a retard..even tho he thought he was joking around..makes my blood boil

agree stillstanding. 'straight' means boring, square I would say.

......but 'gay' is good! wink

harleyd, do you think "straight" is used here as in the opposite of gay?

I don't accept for a minute that the word gay used as an insult doesn't have an underlying homosexual meaning whether or not the user is aware or not but I'm not so sure straight is the same.

If someone called me straight I think I would take it as straight-laced or conventional and wouldn't see a sexuality reference underlying it but perhaps I am being naive?

of course we care lg, it is really important. respect for others is a pretty basic thing and i am horrified that so many on this thread would think otherwise.

and i also like hatwoman's point of 16.43, there's no big deal about 'telling' children about this for me.

Not much to say but wanted to post support for 'gay' not being an insult. And congrats on pregnancy LG (I know you're ages along now but hope you still like being congratulated

)

you'll need to set up your own fan club soon LG... smile

on the flip side, ive heard 'you're so straight' loads lately too
have had to pull ds1 a few times in the last couple of weeks for certain phrases he was using

wow lenin 35 weeks smile

last time i spoke to you you had ages to go!

'Tis actually making me feel slightly teary, not in a gay way obviously, but happy nonetheless, that so many of you care about this.

<blames 35-week pregnancy hormones for minor un-tough-dyke-like reaction>

<is feeling the love smile

agree morloth...minorities are always a target..unfortunately.

LeninGrad: you are my new hero... I'll be cutting and pasting a lot of this thread to use, calmly, when trying to explain to less thoughtful members of my family and my students why 'gay' as an insult makes me want to strangle them isn't acceptable!

LeninGrad "I just don't understand why with all the LGBT chic there was in the 90s and noughties that we seem to have regressed in this area in schools/the playground/pre-adolescent and adolescent chat."

Because humans are pack animals and anyone acting outside of the pack "norm" is going to be pounced on.

I'm a bit shocked at the number of people who don't understand why using 'gay' as a term of abuse is wrong. But Lenin is saying everything I'd like to say, except she's being nice and reasonable about it.

It's not just kids is it. My mum runs a pub, she had to ask someone to leave recently (for drink and aggressive behaviour, I couldn't do my mum's job in a month of Sundays). As he was leaving he turned on mum and said some variant of 'eff off, you effing dyke c***!. Lovely in front of a packed pub. It happens a lot, any time there is an altercation her sexuality is used as an insult.

My aunt, who is also gay, works as a civil servant, and she gets some comments as well. She mentioned that she liked Black Eyed Peas, some bloke she works with said 'bet you do, that Fergie is gorgeous, bet you want to get in her knickers etc etc'.

This kind of thing is pretty much par for the course for those two.

Lol GetOrf! I posited that theory earlier re: the reluctance to pull people up on language because then you might have to talk about gay people, and well, they're a bit queer aren't they?!

Educators, and other interested parties, there's a link below to The IoS Pink List 2009. As they say:

"It's back - as controversial and, we believe, as necessary as ever. Here is this year's roster of the 101 most influential gay and lesbian people in Britain today."

It's a bit white and male but there are a few Black, Asian, Jewish and female role models you could bring into your lessons. I didn't notice anyone with known disabilities but there might be some in there.

And a personal, heartfelt thank you to all of you who challenge homophobia on a daily basis. It will be making a difference to LGBT people all around you.

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/the-iiosi-pink-list-2009-1721869.html

PS Alan Duncan, who knew?! I'm so behind the times, always thought he looked like a bit of a Ladies' man myself (yes, I can be judgey too!)

Perhaps it is prevalent at schools because there are a high proportion of parents who don't think there is anything wrong with poof/lezza/gay as 'banter'.

One other idea - is this so prevalent in schools due to kids' desire to fit in, therefore making it necessary to mark others out as, well, other?

I just don't understand why with all the LGBT chic there was in the 90s and noughties that we seem to have regressed in this area in schools/the playground/pre-adolescent and adolescent chat.

The simplest way to look at this for me is if at the least you or your kids are hurting people's feelings, you should address this.

If there is a possibility you are contributing to and enabling an environment where LGBT people are bullied, commit suicide or are murdered, and you don't care about that, or don't want to read about why that might be, there is little else I can do to persuade you that this stuff matters.

On the whole though, I think it's important that those who disagree with these sentiments aren't silenced. It's only by openly questioning and debating calmly and respectfully that we'll come to some middle ground of understanding and respect. If we become polarised, we send out mixed messages, and the bullies and rabid homophobes thrive on that.

i havnt read the whole thread here but sadly words like spaz do exist as my 9 yr old found out swimming the other day and he is disabled he was terribly hurt, and cried.

i explained to him there are many many ignorant people in this world and they are best ignored and to never say anything to hurt others feelings, he said there were very "childish" is is 9 yrs old and is more adult than some adults on this topic.

I have a 17 YO sister and from what I can gather being 'Gay' is the in thing at the moment. It has nothing to do with homosexuality just as (I presume) the word Gay did not mean homosexual years and years ago.

Used to work with 16-18 YO and everything was 'gay'. Except from the young people who were actually (openly) homosexual. From my experience these young people wernt treated differently/bullied.

I have herd of young people who 'experiment' with homosexuality, just like trying out drinking beer or whatever. I dont think it is as unusual as it was years ago for some one to admit to being homosexual or bisexual.

Bullying or name calling is always awful weather you are 5 or 50 but its always going to happen in some form or another. The main thing is being able to deal with it IMO.

As for the packed lunch? YABU to regret it

your DD wasnt overly bothered by the insult and presumably enjoyed it so I say stick to your guns and keep going with the homosexual packed lunches grin

I think Kazzi is Richard Littlejohn in disguise.

PC Gorn mad = why can't we call people wogs/spazzes/mongols anymore

To use gay/lesbian/poof as a general insult is offensive. I cannot believe anyone would try to bother and defend this.

Kazzi - you say you greet your lesbian cousin with 'Hi lezza' and she isn't offended. How do you know she is not gritting her teeth. I know that if my gay mum was greeted by her cousin with the same phrase, my mum would smile and ignore, but think inside 'twat'.

I was talking to people at work about this topic yesterday, said that my dd had used lesbian as an insult. Lots of people O spoke to thought it was harmless. People just don't think.

MissSunny you might want to think about what you have just written there. The thread was about whether or not it is OK for kids to use the word gay as essentially a term of abuse. LeninGrad posted some research findings as to the impact of homophobic abuse at schools. How can that not be relevant to the thread? Especially when she and other people have shown that this sort of thing really does have a negative impact on children who are (or think they might be) gay?

I think this (of no interest to me line of thinking) is often the reason why such things are let to go on, because the adults around don't really care as it doesn't upset them. We all really need to be on our guard to try and address prejudice whenever we see/hear it, or indeed when we ourselves feel it. It's all part of that general premise of putting yourselves into the other person's shoes I think, a key thing for children to learn and adults to demonstrate.

she had a couple of cartons of fruit juice, tea. Wouldn't have helped the situation grin

.

(Re the candy floss, fox. You can but it in tubs so no issues re packing it for a lunch al fresco)

Kazzi wrote: "if a group of lads down the pub jokingly call a mate gay and he laughs it off with them its banter, if a group of people use it as an insult to deliberately upset someone its bullying!"

Well I am sorry but if I heard someone call someone a Jew, paki, nigger, or gay etc as an insult or "banter" EVEN IF that person laughs it off I would still be offended not because they insulted that particular person as such but because they insulted the entire community of Jewish/black/gay people by associating them with something bad.

pointydog - what did you give her to drink?

I ask because once I ordered a ginger beer at a bar...

"That is such a lesbian drink" a 'friend' of mine hissed. hmm

The use of the word gay as an insult is totally unacceptable and I will definitely be pulling my DS up if he ever uses it near me.

FWIW when I was at primary school there was a boy there whose surname rhymed with gay. He was quite effeminate as well so he got called it by everyone (including me once or twice to my eternal shame).

I went to a different secondary school but we ended up being in the same group of friends years later (early 20's). He had grown up completely confused about his sexuality, had always assumed he was gay but then found he fancied girls. He had and was still having an awful time trying to feel happy and comfortable with himself and I have always thought it was down to constantly being called gay.

We were never pulled up on it by the teachers and it wasn't even said in a particularly nasty way (I'm sure some posters on here would have said it was just banter hmm

) but it has clearly affected him for years and years and still makes me sad

'gay' used as an insult is offensive

For anyone who is interested, it's used here in Germany in exactly the same way too ie the OP's lunchbox would be "schwul", meaning a bit crap/naff/not cool.

So I think that cancels out any possibility that the original meaning of the English word gay has mutated into the newest meaning - it is obviously connected to its definition as homosexual.

it's NOT OK to use "girly" as an insult

not within earshot of me or dh anyway grin

by seeker "I think that it is significant that it is OK to use "gay" as an insult - but it is (finally) not OK to use spazz, crip, paki,wog,nigger...... Homophobia is sadly not far below the surface. Neither is prejudice against people with disabilities or racism - but at least most people know that they can't express those views openly."

I would add to that - it's also telling that it's ok to use "girl" "girly" "girl's blouse" etc as an insult.

My post confirms what exactly?

Are you calling me a bully?

I'm not the lone voice trying to justify ignorant bigoted abuse hmm

I'd jump on my kids (or visiting ones) that used language I didn't like for any reason. I was brought up using no swear words, it is perfectly possible (of course I swore as a teenager, and expected to get told off if caught, and then I grew out of it).

Children can be very thoughtless and it is part of helping them to grow up into nice people to remind them of the impact of what they say and do. Ultimately it's for their benefit too, as well as everyone they come into contact with.

My children have picked up "damn" and "hell" and dh and I don't find that upsetting, but we do make sure they know that other people might find those words upsetting if they are religious for example (we are aetheists, so the words are meaningless to us). So to avoid using them.

It's a bit pathetic to have such a small repertoire of insults that you have to use words that are broad brush offensive when indulging in a bit of mutual banter in any case IMO.

agree with Riven, that this is in precisely the same category as using 'retard' or 'retarded' as an insult.

Calling something 'gay' is clearly derogatory since, through common usage, it has come to mean something which is silly/stupid.

It had that meaning when I was growing up in Canada in the '70s. It was used a LOT then by kids at school and even then I was shocked that people thought it was OK.

very, very nasty.

I thought there'd be more chat about chipsticks. I have only just re-discoverred them.

"I just personally think theres bigger things to think about in life than the word "gay" and whether or not people who take life too seriously find it offensive."

Couldn't disagree more, Kazzi - I think prejudice definitely falls into one of The Big Things to Worry About and doing everything we can to address it one of our main duties as parents. And worrying about whether or not someone is offended also falls into my category of Important Things to Teach my Children.

As for the inference that it is only people "who take life too seriously" that care about whether or not people are hurt by words we use or about deep-seated prejudice ... I'm not sure where to start.

LeninGrad, can I echo some of the comments on here about your considerable graciousness on this thread? Some of the posts here make me truly cringe and I can't imagine what it must be like for you to read them. You're one classy broad!

Sadly I have heard "paki" used in recent times. I was so naive, having worked in Hackney I honestly thought that racism didn't exist in the teenage generation, but in an inner-city school in Manchester it was alive and well. Kids kept saying it was just short for Pakistani and refused to give up using it. I had several "enlightening" conversations with parents: "Yeah, my granddaughter won't be doing her homework this term coz it's about Pakis." (we were doing a project on Islam.

and

"We went to look at that place where T is meant to be doing his work experience, but he won't be going there, it's full of Pakis."

So so sad. School is often the only place these prejudices are challenged.

I'm not pretending it's no longer used - but no one would come in here saying "I don"t know why you're getting upset - it's only short for spastic after all" Which they would have done 10 years ago.

Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly. My dd was grounded for a week in year 5 for using that one, by the way.

please don't pretend on this thread that words like spaz are no longer used.
it is along with a lont of other rude words used to describe disabled people

I think the issue here is not so much whether a particular gay person may or may not be insulted by a naff t shirt being described as "gay". Some will, some won't, depending on life experience, personality and mood on the day.

What we are talking about here is how we are bringing up the next generation. The society of the future depends on our children - and if we allow them to use potentially damaging and offensive language without explanation or challenge, then we are not doing our jobs properly.

I think that it is significant that it is OK to use "gay" as an insult - but it is (finally) not OK to use spazz, crip, paki,wog,nigger...... Homophobia is sadly not far below the surface. Neither is prejudice against people with disabilities or racism - but at least most people know that they can't express those views openly.

Hi Kazzi,
Out of interest where do you feel you have been belittled? As I don't remember seeing a post where you have but again that could highlight nicely someone can think one thing about what they are saying and the other person takes it another way.

Afraid I disagree with your example down the pub- the butt of the joke has to laugh it off otherwise there is fuel to the fire. I personally don't see that as harmless.

and I think the post above my previous post by greensleeves proves my point

General banter directed at one person while everyone else laughs is usually bullying, as I've stated banter has to be a 2 way thing, if a group of lads down the pub jokingly call a mate gay and he laughs it off with them its banter, if a group of people use it as an insult to deliberately upset someone its bullying!
People have the right to have banter regardless of whether others can overhear. People shouldn't have to walk on egg shells for fear of offending someone.
Bullying is wrong but unfortunately it will always exist, and it exists because of people (as I've seen on a few posts on here today) like to pick on people who think differently to them, look differently, act differently, have different lifestyle choices. I've personally been belittled on here a few times today just for speaking up for what I believe in yet not once have I belittled anyone, just put across a few different points of view.
Not very good role models imo from people preaching that bullying is wrong!

people who bleat about PC gorn mad are usually aggrieved at not being allowed to say things which they think are funny but which they know damn well are offensive

"harmless inult" pmsl

I am one of the most insulting people I know, but I don't pepper my speech with cheap hurtful crap like "gay" and "spaz" fgs

nobody really thinks this is OK, do they? hmm

if either of my sons used this as an insult I would raise the roof

but the OP's lunch sounds delicious

i came late to this thread but agree with Riven - you wouldn't think it was harmless to use the word 'retard', 'spastic' etc as 'harmless banter'

Leningrad is spot on about the corrosiveness of hearing 'gay' bandied about every day

it's not 'political correctness', it's avoiding being a rude oaf ffs.

it is tough growing up gay or bi. i am so heartened by all the wise comments from teachers on this thread.

i spent a decent chunk of my teenage years conflicted and miserable about my sexuality, and while school was not to blame (was more my parents' religion that was the problem), had school been a 'safe' place to be out i might have had more confidence to come out much sooner and realise there was nothing wrong with me.

And yup that was tongue in cheek banter and delivered to an audience unknown- so Thandeka adds a further apology posting one thing then doing another- just highlighting a quagmire quite nicely I feel.

Hi Kazzi-
I do agree with you to some extent- about there being a difference between banter and bullying but the key is the audience- and in a school often there is a wider audience that the banter maker and the "butt of the banter". Mild joking between good friends who aren't being overheard by anyone who could get upset or offended is one thing- general banter directed at one person (while everyone else laughs at the one person) is another.

And apologies if I offended any "sunshine brown, sensitive skin, curvacious, same sex interested individuals." by calling them vulnerable

MissSunny- you wrote: "We didnt have any homosexual (that we knew about) kids at my school. "

I misquoted that to: "I didn't know any homosexuals at school" as this is a long thread and couldn't find the post- I don't think that changes the statement as I didn't say you said "there were no homosexuals in my school" but I said you didn't know of any.

Oh and lecture style?! Apologies if you took it to be that- I like to think it was mainly an informed rant

but while we are gently trading insults can I say how rude I thought you were to say to Leningrad "Lenin i couldnt be bothered to read all 3 of your posts but got the general idea." (Directly cut and pasted)
Perhaps if you actually read them you might understand more about where we are coming from.

Fair point about that being someone else on the Enid Blyton front- there were a fair few posts about good old Enid- but I do stand by its naive to still think the term Gay means happy. It has moved on as a term.

The tone of your posts made it seem like you thought teaching your child about homosexuality would harm them in some way. Apologies if this is wrong but at some point your child is going to encounter gay people you are not going to be able to "protect" them from that forever and research is starting to come out that learning about different types of relationships from a young age means children are more likely to be tolerant and accepting of such relationships. Primary schools are starting to do great work about tackling homophobia- perhaps if you are so against your child learning "about it at such a young age" you
should check with your child's school.

From the DCSF website:
^Pupils may also experience indirect homophobic abuse, not directed towards a particular person or group, but used when remarks are made to pass negative judgement, such as 'your bag is so gay' or 'that ring tone is gay'. It is important for all staff to challenge pupils, explaining the consequences of using 'gay' in a derogatory way. It might be time-consuming at first, but a consistent 'zero-tolerance' approach to such language is central to achieving progress and an environment in which being gay is not thought of as being inferior.
...
it is essential to challenge homophobic language. It is the role of governors to ensure heads and teachers and other staff feel supported in doing so^.

I am totally with Thandeka, ALL types of inappropriate language must be tackled. I would also have added that it is also the role of PARENTS to ensure teachers feel supported in tackling this.

Thandeka, the point I am making by using those words as an example is that if a bully is hell bent on bullying they can make an insult from ANY word, my daughter has ginger hair.....thanks to political correctness people call it strawberry blonde! It disgusts me, my daughters hair colour is GINGER not strawberry blonde and I will always teach my daughter to be proud of who she is!

You've probably just insulted every ginger person who happens to have spots and be fat and gay, didn't stop you from posting it just to make your point though eh!

Action should be taken against any form of bullying, as long as it IS bullying and not harmless banter, and once again harmless banter DOES exist......well it does amongst people like myself who just chill out and don't take life too seriously!

Bloody hell, you dare to have a different opinion and everyone jumps down your throat!

I don't necessarily agree with all of leningrads comments but I do respect her for speaking up for what she believes in.

I just personally think theres bigger things to think about in life than the word "gay" and whether or not people who take life too seriously find it offensive.

hatwoman, just re-read your post...duh...I blame the sun...my brain is not working....wonder if I would be unreasonable to have a 3rd shower today....sigh...

Thank you for the compliments, needless to say, this is all very close to my heart and I think it's a great discussion. Will catch up later.

As a teacher yes we flipping well should challenge those words you listed Kazzi- not ban them but challenge them and their use. Kids use those terms as bullying insults and I won't tolerate any form of bullying in my classroom. (although must admit to getting a bit confused when Kids were shouting "shut up you muslim" to each other and I was all set to wade in with the racist incident report until they both got the giggles and told me they were cousins and both muslim.

I still had a bit of a word with them about it though as other people may have been upset by that.

Some people may be able to laugh such insults off (or appear to) but others can't and I think we have a responsibility to suppport all vulnerable members of society- especially the ginger spotty fat gay ones.
wink

"a gay lunch" whatever next hmm

id take no notice at all !!

Sounds like quite a nice lunch to me.

Or have we moved on?

grin

I had this discussion over the word 'retard' on here. This is depressingly familiar.
Its just harmless banter etc etc

"A harmless insult"? What on earth does that mean? Now we really are getting into semantics.

Here is the online definition of insult:

- be offensive to somebody: to say or do something rude or insensitive that offends somebody
- show contempt for somebody or something: to say or do something that suggests a low opinion of somebody or something

So how can that be harmless?!

I have been reading this post with interest and just wanted to say that I am very impressed with the eloquence and cool-headedness with which LeninGrad is expressing her position in the face of some quite nonsensical statements. Well done.

I don't have anything to add other than what has already been said by Leningrad, seeker, and stillstanding have said.

I really don't understand how calling something that is bad "gay" is not insulting towards gay people despite the assertion that it has a different meaning. It is clearly considered bad because it is associated with gay people.

Many people (although hopefully the number is decreasing) call someone a "Jew" if they are tight with money and you can't say that because in that context it has a different meaning from saying that someone is of semitic descent and/or practises the Jewish religion that the comment is somehow not offensive. That is just naive and disingenuous.

"I don't think there's any such thing as a harmless insult. You can take the piss amongst friends of course, but if you cross the line and insult someone you should apologise."

couldn't agree more with the second half of the sentence, of course you should be able to have a joke amongst friends and some people do take jokes a step too far , but then these people are obviously not true friends in the first place. But there is such a thing as a harmless insult.....it all depends on whether the insult is said and taken in a light hearted fashion.

So we should also ban the words fat, ginger, anorexic, geek, skinny, lanky, spotty etc etc etc etc the list goes on and on and on coz I'm sure if we thought about it hard enough we could probably make an insult out of most words in the English language.

I think I'm the one in the minority on this thread (and I've been bullied as both a child and an adult), You have a choice to either allow words to get to you or to laugh it off, I personally find laughing off an intended insult has the reverse effect of what a bully wants to achieve. I'm not homophobic by any means I have gay friends and my cousin is a lesbian, when I see her I'll quite often shout "Alright Lezza" and she jokingly says something back, its harmless banter! If I said it and it upset her then I simply wouldn't say it because I'm not a bully!

All teenagers have vulnerable emotions not just gay teenagers, it seems acceptable for people to label them as chavs, irresponsible etc without taking into consideration childrens backgrounds etc, unfortunately thats children being bullied by adults and websites like this seem to be the worst for people looking down noses at others! I personally think, even with the best intentions in the world, by over highlighting matters you're actually being counter productive and encouraging the bullies who get a reaction. Laugh it off and the bullies soon get bored.

Still think an awful lot of it is a reluctance to tackle it head on in schools due to the confusion between sex and sexuality and parents and teachers feeling uncomfortable about discussing these things.

seeker, leningrad is well aware of my views on homosexuality as i've had a few conversations with her....i find her one of the most interesting,intelligent, and kind posters on mumsnet..some of you should learn from her.

well said Hatwoman... I was interested in this point of only telling children on a need to know basis as well.
So in Miss Sunny's case she hasn't talked to her dd about it as she doesn't know any gay people.
So what happens as the child gets older, perhaps you still don't know any gay people... when do you tell them? when they're teenagers? after years of listening to gay as an insult in the playground? when they discover they themselves are gay?
Surely they way to overcome homophobia is to instill in your dc from a really early age that there are all kinds of relationships and all are fine... hence I told my dc when they were tiny looking through books on relationships and preparing for new babies that there will be children with just mummies or just daddies. They are now 8 + 10 and obviously they don't know the ins and outs of it, just like they don't know the gory details of a heterosexual relationship but I am proud of the fact that when I say, when you get married etc they always pipe up, that they could marry a man if they wanted!

Kazzi79 - don't think for one second that I haven't got a very thick skin, lawd knows I need it!

And if the word 'gay' to mean something bad becomes part of your intellectual furniture it can't help but seep through into your attitudes and behaviour.

Yes guvk, I wonder if this is why it's so prevalent - to do with assertion of masculinity in adolescent boys maybe and the girls just aping? Dunno, long time since I was at school and not down with the kids any more!

Will find out more as my kids start school, eek!

fairladyrant - sorry I didn;t understand what you're saying.

my point wasn;t addressed to the issue of using the word gay as an insult - it was addressed to a different point that has come up on the thread - whether or not to "tell" children about the existence of gay people/relationships.

"Banter is meant in good faith where both parties see it as nothing more than a harmless insult."

I don't think there's any such thing as a harmless insult. You can take the piss amongst friends of course, but if you cross the line and insult someone you should apologise.

"A comparable phrase is 'you're such a girl'. What exactly is that saying? You're weak, pathetic, a cry-baby? Delightful for all girls to hear I'm sure."

Not particularly a phrase that would offend me as a female.....unless I actually WAS a cry baby of a girl, but then again I don't take things to heart and expect people to walk on egg shells around me so people can say what they want.

But that banter is incessant, it's wearing and this particular phrase is getting out of control in an environment where you've got a lot of vulnerable LBGT kids. It also reinforces.

I've heard this phrase used three times at work in the last year or two from adults. It's just not on.

If it's not that big a deal, we can just not use it, right?

"oh and seeker...leningrad decides whether or not she talks to me...she doesn't need your permission. "

Absolutely, daft punk. I wasn't directing my suggestion at her - she is more than capable of deciding ANYTHING for herself! I was letting other people know that this is a subject on which you have views which you have expressed before and which are apparently not amenable to reason.

That's right Lenin. And in the case of 'gay' as an insult I'm sure it had its origin in an attack on males for being 'feminine' -- insufficiently aggressive, or too expressive, or liking things that'only girls like'. On the stupid assumption that all and only gay males are feminine, and that feminine is bad. So in addition to its main offensiveness as being a homophobic insult it does -- in its origin -- include a largish dose of misogyny too.

Theres a big difference between banter and bullying. A bully will use anything if they're so hell bent on picking on someone, if its not because they're gay its because they don't fit in, they don't look right, they're too fat, too lazy, wear glasses, have ginger hair etc etc......a bully will always find something to pick on.

Banter is meant in good faith where both parties see it as nothing more than a harmless insult.

The discussions you talk about LeninGrad have led innocent shopkeepers being ordered by councils to remove gollywogs from their window display, have led many schools and town centres to abandon Christmas celebrations for fear of offending the minority, we now live in a society where we pamper to every whim of the so called minority and everyone else has to like it or lump it......basically what it spells out is if you're NOT in the minority then you're wrong! Hardly a good way to treat everyone as being equal, hey just my opinion

A comparable phrase is 'you're such a girl'. What exactly is that saying? You're weak, pathetic, a cry-baby? Delightful for all girls to hear I'm sure.

But if that banter is derogatory, incessant and fosters or facilitates an environment where gay kids are bullied, that is not on. And that is exactly what it does.

Imagine how it feels to be surrounded by people using a phrase that implies you are inferior. It chips away at you.

I bet the same discussions were had over nigger, coon and wog and rightly, they've stopped being used. They're only words right, it's just banter, I'm only joking. No need to take offence or take them so seriously or as implying I think you're inferior.

Even though that's exactly what it's doing when a majority group pick on a minority, just because they're a bit different.

cheers morloth.. smile

oh and seeker...leningrad decides whether or not she talks to me...she doesn't need your permission.

back to the op - I can't see what's wrong with that lunchbox at all (apart from the fact it has monkeypoo sandwiches grin

) and think it is so very stupidly sad to take the piss out of someone's lunch. FGS, it's only food - it's not like there was a homegrown micro-seedling tray in there with ethically sourced napkins and an environmentally sound wooden fork, is it? Sangers, kitkat, bit of fruit, bit of a dip - ok, it's not cheesestrings and a frootshoot but who is going to be the winner here? The dimwits with the too-processed-to-be-called-real-food stuff, or your DC?

hatwoman...I may have this wrong...but seeing that gay used to mean happy and great and whatever and it is now used as the opposite...I think that is what it really is...I don't think it is actually used in relation of gay people, when Kids say it...still correct them, of course...just don't think it is ever meant in that way...i.e. oh gay people is what we don't like and thereofre anything we don't like is called gay?
It's a bit like sick now meaning great...iykwim

but like I said, I might got this wrong...and I may nto even make sense, lol

oh dear. have been giving DS Puritan lunch blush

stillstanding I care enough to not use the word myself, but not enough to get my knickers in a twist if other people do (especially kids/teenagers). I don't think I am particularly unusual in this view.

daftpunk livejournal.com - there are stacks and stacks of messageboards.

re whether or not to "tell" young children about gay relationships/gay people: I find the arguments focused on whether or not the child "needs to know" are missing the point. they are addressing the issue purely from the pov of that particular child. but it's not an issue about an individual child - it's an issue about our society. the "point" of ensuring our children are aware that people and relationships come in all shapes and sizes is not just to help that individual child make sense of the world - it's to play our role in building an open, equal, non-discriminatory society.

imo, whatever people say, there's an underlying hint of homophobia about it. if you honestly believe that being gay is, in terms of value, no different from being straight then you would see that applying the "need to know" criteria is completely bonkers. It's like saying that children don't "need to know" that roses come in white - on the grounds that all the ones in your garden are pink.

My god we live in such a politically correct world where we daren't say anything for fear of offending someone, I think its time people got over it!

Welcome to the world of high school kids, its the kind of thing that a teenager says! I know gay people who aren't insulted at being called gay.....its what they are!

I think the real issue here is whether it was used as a phrase of banter or used as a way of bullying, if its the latter then its something to keep an eye on, if its just banter then get over it, we live in a very sorry world if we can't even have banter for fear of offending someone.

I think there are three main categories here:

1) The word gay is used as an insult where sexuality is not relevant (you are so gay, your lunch is gay). This is offensive and unacceptable for all the reasons highlighted above, including the underlying implications that being gay is inferior;

2) Calling a homosexual gay in such a way that it is clear that insult is intended. This is blatant homophobia and for obvious reasons also offensive and unacceptable; and

3) Describing a homesexual as gay where the word is just used as a noun/adjective. This is using the word in its proper context and is obviously fine.

For me, it's all about the use of 'calling' someone gay. You can describe them as gay, if they are, if it's relevant to anything or just a point of interest, but anything that falls into name-calling is out.

I really don't think anyone has said you can't describe someone who is gay, as gay. Except me, I'm a lesbian.

And what if, you stopped someone from calling another person gay, yet it turned out that person was actually gay? The only way we can stop it from being used as an insult, is to stop treating it like one.

Yes Lenin, but others have equated it with words like 'fuck' and 'bastard'.

I think those comparisons were made to show that that using the word fuck/spaz is unacceptable just like using the word gay as an insult is. I haven't seen anyone saying that they would stop their children from using the word gay when meaning homosexual but I may not be reading the thread closely enough.

But I agree that using the word in context is obviously acceptable.

well...to OP....my son got the odd comments about his lunch at one point (gay being one of them)....it used to really annoy me... and just was proof to me, that by having school uniforms bullying is not stopped...juat different things are picked on instead...but that is neither here nor there...

my son also used to use the word gay (in that not so nice sense)...and I just do what rhubarb says...just correct him by saying...do you mean this and that....just say, of whatever he was talking about...oh that was happy...i.e. re-introduce the origianl meaning...

lol at solid golds post on page one...made me giggle....

Oooh hang on thread moved on.

I would equate calling someone gay (as an insult) has the same severity as calling someone Spaz. Fuck is different as its not really something you call people- I suppose a fuckwit maybe?

I have also heard about parents going mental about kids using the word gay in the correct context which is daft- but parents having words about using it as an insult can only be a good thing.

People have said that they would point out to their kids that gay shouldn't be used as an insult or in a derogatory way. It's fine if it's descriptive and, therefore, neutral.

Rhubarb- I agree- its teaching them the correct context- I occasionally like to trot out "Gay stands for Good as You".

Another funny story- 6th form class doing eng lit- gay character in it- one bright spark pipes up "Like Kate" (Kate being student in class). Teacher (not me) goes completely mental about homophobia and class get thorough telling off. Kate is actually gay and out and proud so in that context it was banter and perhaps didnt warrant the reaction it got. But its a fine line to tred sometimes and teachers can get it wrong. But heck at least teachers are trying as unfortunately I know of many teachers/schools who just practice selective listening and ignore it.

It has been compared to kids saying 'fuck' or calling people 'spaz', which is not a fair comparison at all.

Others have said they would stop their children from using the word gay.

The reason I mentioned it's original context was that it is still printed in Enid Blyton books, and her books are still very popular. I had to tell my dd that gay no longer meant happy. I had mixed feelings about that tbh.

I'm sorry, Rhubarb - I don't understand. Most of us are suggesting that gay should not be used as an insult but only to describe a homosexual. No suggestion of banning or using as swearword.

Are you not sending out a confusing message if you ban the word? Gay is not a swear word, it should not be an insult either, so if you discourage your children from using the word, are you not sending out a sublime message about gays?

Would it not be better instead, to correct them and explain the appropriate usage for the word?

I don't think gays would be too happy at having the word related to swearing.

DS (9) now refuses to wear his favourite gap top when seeing his friends because that apparently stands for "gap and proud". I asked him what gap meant and he knew it related to sexuality. Cue a southernsoftie rant about how using such terms is discriminatory and nasty, and anyway pointless as being gay just puts you in the 10% Thandeka mentions. DS slightly taken aback but now completely agrees that using gay to mean sad or rubbish is not OK, regardless of whether there is any discriminatory intent behind it. Still won't risk wearing his top though for fear of being teassed.

Thandeka - think it's an important job you're doing (does this sound patronising? If so I'm sorry). Really feel very sad that dd was using lesbian as an insult, especially because of the family connection, I very muchhope she has stopped doing it.

Hope that the school she goes to raises objections when they hear 'gay' being used as an insult.

Thanks Getorfmoiland- is something I am really passionate about- which apparently makes me gay hmm

. In fact another great student response- "Miss, you are really keen on all this stuff - are you gay?" My response- "would it matter if I was?"- Him: "erm no suppose not!" Jobs a good un!

Gay was a slang term amongst MANY others when I was at school in the 80's (I'm 36) so can't believe it is still in vogue now.

It meant naff, crap etc and I definately didn't make the connection to homosexuality then so i suspect my peers didn't either and the yoof of today don't now.
Do agree it is not to be encouraged.
My dd is too young to use it yet but I will stamp it out when she does.

People no longer say 'I'm feeling gay' to mean that they're feeling merry/happy/cheerful. However people might still refer to the 'gaiety' of an event without a homosexual reference being inferred. As an adverb, someone might 'gaily' wind their merry way back from a pub.

So in the three letter form, the merry meaning isn't really there anymore, a group of old people might perhaps say 'Oh we did have a gay, old time' to each other without raised eyebrows.

I can't help thinking that calling a pack lunch 'gay' is a coded way of telling other people that you are badly educated and more likely to pull levers in a factory when you leave school. Apologies to any lever pullers.

Had to add my two pennorth as rather a lot of people on here seem to be accepting it as "teenage lingo" and "kids will be kids" and it not being a matter to worry about. When it is. The high levels of suicide, depression, self harm etc in young LGBT teens is attributable to endemic homophobia in our schools including unchallenge use of the phrase "that's so gay".

I'm a teacher in charge of tackling homophobia at my school and we have massively educated and cut down on kids using "that's so gay" and as a result young LGBT students report feeling much happier in the school environment. That can only be a good thing.

It is not acceptable to use "Gay" as an insult because using it equates being gay with something that is rubbish or shit- and even if there is no homophobic intent behind it- it propagates this hideous culture of homophobia in our schools and as a result LGBT students are suffering terribly.

Once students have been educated about the terminology and we have had a good old discussion on sexual orientation - the majority of students are happy to try not to use the term "gay" anymore. (in teachers presence at least- but some really do try elsewhere too- have overheard them when they couldn't see me!)

The teacher absolutely needs to challenge it and schools need to challenge it too- yes its difficult and doesn't happen overnight (and in my school there is still a way to go- certain teachers attitudes for example") but kids have to be taught that homophobia along with other forms of prejudice and discrimination is wrong. I even had one kid (muslim)who started in one of my lessons saying "I want to kill all gays" who finished the lesson with "Miss, I still don't like it right, but I sort of get what you are saying about not being mean to someone who is"- you can't say fairer than that!

Oh and my final high horse note to Ms Sunny- "I didn't know any homosexuals at school" well since 1 in 10 (at least) are gay lesbian or bisexual- you probably did but they probably weren't out because of this issue of homophobia in schools. Also equating Gay to mean happy a la Enid Blyton is naive- that term is so outdated and I have never heard it used in that context apart from in books like Enid Blyton from the 50's and 60's and Kids only use it when they are trying to wriggle out of being challenged for homophobic language. And finally- I find it very sad you don't feel the need to talk to your children about people being gay. 10% of people are- they exist and talking about gay people isn't going to harm your child in anyway, in fact I would hope it would mean they would be a little more tolerant than you are coming across in your posts. There is absolutely no need to bring sex into a discussion about gay people at all (the fact that the majority of homophobia seems to stem from issues around the sexual activity of gay men is a whole other rant in itself)- you should talk about relationships.
In fact- to start the discussion- I reccomend a book called "And Tango makes three"- which is a fab true story about 2 male penguins who adopt an egg until it hatches and bring up the chick as their own.

I am not comfortable with using the word gay to mean happy, probably because the only people I know who have argued that it should mean that are people who think that gay is too good a word for those dreadful homosexuals to use.

People like my father: "why can't they stick to queer instead, that's a better word, because they ARE queer. They aren't gay. They're sad. It's a shame such a good word has come to mean something so unpleasant" etc.

but possibly that's just my father being his normal charming self.

Oh you mean gay as in happy? It's a bit old fashioned isn't it? I doubt if they ever hear it in that context, and I think that definition is a bit secondary now, so would probably discourage it.

Naff is an insult in that context Rhubarb, not an insult like swearing, but still an insult. The intention behind the word is to be insulting (Ok, the lunch doesn't care, so it's fairly random, but yswim?)

If kids don't know what 'gay' means then that's where adults pulling them up and telling them comes into it.

Oh, and I know you weren't asking me, but FYI I don't care if mine use the word gay in context, so, no I don't think it's wrong.

ps nice lunch tho. Some of the kids in our school get Puritan Lunch ie homemade bread sandwich, tap water and fruit. Now that really IS gay. Ooops, shite.

Rhubarb, I think most people would agree that the word gay has moved on from being happy to being homosexual. So, yes, I probably would "correct" my child if he used it in the happy context although I seriously doubt he ever would for the same reason.

But I don't accept that the word has moved on to meaning naff. I think that using the word as an insult has clear homophobic connotations regardless of whether children are aware of them or not. Seeker's 4 yo doesn't know what fuck means but that doesn't mean he should be encouraged to use the word.

Oooooh, I REALLY hate it. My son's said it in my earshot a couple of times and I've gone crackers.And I don't think kids DO perceive the word as having two senses.

Has anyone got a gay teen?ask them-I don't think they'd be all that comfortable with it being used widely in school...

Failing that, let's ask Peter Tatchell angry

Personally I'd rather my kids used "shite" instead.

People can change anything if they feel strongly enough about it regardless of how worthy the cause is. Look at the number of people who signed Diana's book of condolence and stood outside Westminster cathedral for her funeral. Flocks of them. They didn't even know her. Similarly with Jade Goody. The Republicans never thought Obama would get in either but people cared enough to get out of bed that day and vote and that enthusiasm was encouraged primarily through the internet.

I'm not expecting public demonstrations about the questionable terms of abuse that children use but the level of apathy amongst some people is depressing.

No, but what I am saying, perhaps rather unsuccessfully, is that the word gay was never, ever an insult.

It meant happy.

As in, "I'm so gay!"

Then somehow, I'm not sure how, the word was adopted by homosexuals. They now use it with pride.

I agree that it should not be used as an insult. But in this instance, it is being used to mean 'naff'. So by saying that this is an insult, is saying that 'naff' is an insult.

I can see why gay people would be miffed if it was being used to mean 'naff' because that denotes that they, being gay, are naff. So I wouldn't let my kids use it in that context. But the way it is being used by kids is not intended to be an insult against gay people as these kids don't realise what the word 'gay' means.

And no-one has yet answered me about if your child were to use it in it's original context. Would that be wrong now?

Honestly? Not as much as I should. I'm not tramping around fields caring for sick people, researching medicines, or making myself a target in some wartorn country. I'm not brave enough or qualified enough to do that. So I donate money when I can afford it, I support other people who are a better position to physically help, and I bring my children up to care about the people around them, whether it's someone in their school or someone halfway around the world who they'll never meet.

Calling people names, racism, homophobia, whatever is unacceptable no matter how cynical and world weary you'd like to be. I'm truly sorry that you don't care, I really am, but tbh, if you really didn't care you wouldn't be so bothered about people 'pretending to care about shit on the internet' rather than actually doing something...

Morloth, do you genuinely not care? A lot of people (in particular gay people) find this truly offensive, does that just not matter? And who is it you think is ^pretending to care^?

(Sooo many questions!)

But spaz & paki aren't swear words either, Rhubarb. And no-one would consider those acceptable.

Am not saying it's OK though - I still don't like it much.

morloth...not sure if you're still here..what was the name of that web site you gave me the other night?

i'm running to school now..

I don't think that using 'gay' to mean naff neccessarily has a connection with 'gay' to mean homoseual, I'm sure my dch and their friends uses the word with two different meanings.

There was an exhibition of GCSE Art at the school last week. I saw a brilliant pair of shoes that had been made by someone, and was surprised (don't know why)to read the name label and see that they were by a boy. Anyway, DS (15) said "Oh him, he's gay..." then pointed to the next exhibit, a photo of a girl, and said "...and that's his girlfriend"!

So, calling something gay as in stupid/geeky does NOT necessarily mean they are saying that gay people are stupid etc.

Morloth, I am definitely going to keep pulling them up on it and I think it will make a difference.

Sensible people don't want to offend and half the time it's an awareness issue. If I teach my DS that it is not acceptable to use the word as an insult and his friends know that it won't fly in my house and others do the same it will gradually start to change - just like it did with the other words you mentioned earlier.

But you do have to start somewhere ... no point in just throwing your hands up when you are faced with heinous prejudice.

But seeker, it's not a swear word. It was never a swear word. Would you still tell them off for using it to describe 'happy'?

"oung kids hear it, have no idea about the homosexuality side of things and use it to describe something naff."

I KNOW they don't. That's why it's our job as parents to EXPLAIN it to them. When my ds first used the word 'fuck" he was 4. He had no idea that it wasn't a word he should use, so I explained it to him. That is one of our jobs as parents!

So what are you personally doing to end those things serenity? Honestly?

I do nothing because I don't really care and it seems to me that the majority of people in the world don't really care, so I come back to my original point on this thread, that if the percentage of people who pretend to care about shit on the internet actually did something then the world would be a different place.

The word barstard that is.

Never use it, haven't heard it for a long time, gender specific anatomical insults are more friendly IMHO grin

I personally can't see an end to war, hunger, poverty, doesn't mean we shouldn't bother to try. By allowing kids to continue to use terms such as these, without telling them it's wrong and unacceptable, adults are giving tacit approval for their continued use.

Thing is, gay isn't a swear word at all. It used to mean happy and still does, but now it also means to be homosexual.

The kids have now added another meaning, to be naff. I also think it's from South Park. Young kids hear it, have no idea about the homosexuality side of things and use it to describe something naff.

How would you feel if your child said they were feeling gay? Would you reprimand them for using the word in its original context and meaning?

Lol at chips having sex! I bet you make them squirm.

My DS aged 3 shouted "That's gay" at a family barbecue when I wouldn't let him eat ketchup directly from the bottle. I was so mortified, even thinking about it now makes me feel awful. He got it from my sister - who uses it constantly (she is 23) in fact when he is around her his vocab becomes more bizarre - he constantly describes things as being "rank" another of her favourite words.

My sister has got a lot of gay friends, so it isn't even as if she is a genuine homophobe - she just started saying it as a teenager and never grew out of it. She got it from South Park originally.

Needless to say, I had words - but it was worrying that a. I had stopped even noticing how often she said it and b. that DS had latched onto it at such a young age.

May I just ask, purely out of interest, how you ladies feel about the word "Bastard" being used as an insult? I'm curious because (a) I am one and (b) the term seems to be used in a derogatory way quite a lot on this forum; so I assume it's OK?

stillstanding I am extremely pessimistic and cynical, I like being that way - it means I am more often pleasantly surprised by people than not.

You can pull them up all you like, but it isn't going to make any difference other then them either ramping it up or finding a new way to be offensive.

@ Seeker. Another one I will not tolerate without questioning.

Pupil: "Agh, look at these fucking chips man."

Me (walking past, craning neck to look at chips): "Really, chips having sex? That's amazing, let me see."

Maybe I intervene too much, but I do think it is our responsibility as adults to drum into pupils what is acceptable and what is not. They are children (even at 16) they need guidance. Teachers and parents who turn the other cheek are advocating such behaviour.

Miss Sunny - I can understand it not coming up without a context smile

Rhubarb - I heard a child at my DD's brownie pack saying, "Well, you like CAULIFLOWER! Obviously meant as a pretty deadly insult.

I don't see any reason to bring up the subject out of context to be honest MissSunny, it will come up in any case, then your reaction and explanation matters.

But I don't get why people think you need to bring it up. I don't tell DS about lots of stuff, cause he hasn't asked and it hasn't come up.

Dd and her group of friends call each other lesbians as a form of mild piss-taking - possible like calling each other divs or saddos.

I didn't have a clue until one of her mates came round, they were in the garden and I heard dd's friend say to dd 'oh shuddup, you lesbian'.

I spoke to dd about it - she seemed to think there was nothing in it. I was not happy for the reasons that LeninGrad says above. My mother and one of my aunts are gay, mym mum has been out for about 25 years, my aunt 18 years or so.

I asked dd (13 btw) what she thinks her nan and aunt would say if she knew that she was using lesbian as an (albeit mild) insult. I asked her how hurt they would be.

DD knows what I feel about it and knows absolutely not to use lesbian, gay, poof whatever as an insult. Funnily enough Ithought she would have worked it out for herself.

I do think that she and her friends say it without thinking and she wasn't being malicious, but also I am sure that back in the day when people used insults like mongoloid, spastic etc they weren't being necessarily hostile, just thoughtless and ignorant. Doesn't make it right, though.

Well, presumably all the reception age kids at my daughters' school know, because one of the lesbian parents rather tragically died recently.

At my nephews' school the head teacher had what was by all accounts a whale of a civil ceremony recently, so it's hardly going to be a big secret there either. And in any case that school's packed with lesbian parents too.

Morloth, I do understand what you are saying about it being hard to change teenage lingo but surely your view on this is too pessimistic?

As a child/teenager I knew (having been taught by my parents etc) that some words were just out of bounds. I would be appalled if my DS used gay as an insult and he would never do so in my presence. It's true that I wouldn't be able to control what he did when he wasn't with me and that he probably would use it at some time or another due to peer pressure or whatever but I like to think that he would be a bit blush

if he did.

The point is though that you can't just ignore this and say "kids will be kids". They need to be pulled up on it.

"Well then there must be an awful lot of irresponsible parents in this country because a HUGWE majority of kids in certain areas use the word gay!"

Yes, there are.

I am surprised that reception children use the word"gay" as an insult - I thought it started later. But if they do, they should be told not to. I stopped my ds using the word "fuck"

According to your theory I shouldn't have, because the meaning of "fuck" has moved on, and it now just means "oh bother" After all, they are all saying it.....

Not read the whole thread, just the OP and first few posts.

Just wanted to say that I work in a primary school and the word gay doesn't necessarily mean homosexual. It's now used to describe something or someone that is naff.

Also, my dcs take healthy packed lunches to school, full of fruit and veg, no crisps, no fruit juice, no chocolate. dd has put up with some comments and now gets called 'the fruit and veg girl', but she isn't bothered in the slightest.

LG, I'm not entirely sure why it's so out of control now, perhaps maybe that teenagers will always want to use insulting words that they feel belong to their generation and most other forms of insult are now deemed totally unacceptable. I was speaking to a parent of a Northern Irish friend some years ago who pretty much predicted the terrible racist attacks that are now happening in Belfast, thugs will always find a target. "Gay" as an insult will disappear once it is challenged enough, by EVERYONE, but something equally as offensive will come around and the whole battle will start again.

Sunny - I am referring to teenagers, but if I had younger pupils I would simply say that gay people are boys who love boys or girls who love girls and that it's silly to call a bag (or whatever) "gay" as bags can't be in love. But then I'm not primary trained and have no contact with little ones.

MissSunny my DS is aware of gay relationships if by aware you mean that "Uncle Peter and his boyfriend are coming to dinner" means aware.

He doesn't care or give it a second thought. No idea that there is anything unusual in people of the same sex having relationships because there really isn't anything remarkable about it.

hey VM..no worries, it is hard when all your life you've been told that hetrosexuality is normal...you get married and you have kids..that's it...very black & white, "this is right, that is wrong"....no grey areas.

Viktoria, Thanks. I hope you didn't think I was asking as a criticism. You'll see from my posts earlier I am frequently at a loss as to how to challenge "gay," and wanted to know whether I could use your ideas with impunity.

It doesn't help that both my younger brother and favourite nephew are both fabulous young gay things and regularly use the word themselves.

Seeker -"But what the word actually means is a homosexual person" To you. To kids hwho may not even know about homosexuality, it means crap/naff."

Any responsible parent would, on discovering that their child was giving offence through ignorance explain, so that they would know not to give offense again.

You can't fight it though. They don't care and the more we oldies waffle on about it the harder they are going to push and see just how offensive they can be.

Spaz was a common one when I was a kid, then I grew up. These kids will use Gay, then they will grow up and their kids will use something else.

You can tell your kids not to use and it and why and they will probably not use it again in your presence but you have bugger all chance of changing it long term.

But how on earth do you explain - or explain away - your lesbian and gay friends and relatives, MissSunny?

Some people are pretty clear about their sexual orientations at 5, yes. one of my lesbian friends insists she always knew. Others weren't clear til later.

5yos can have quite strong sexual feelings. Not all, but some.

"Gay(or ghey as it is spelled in online games) is now an insult, the word has moved on. The kids don't care that you find it offensive and have all this background. They just don't care, neither do I and I don't believe that the majority of the population gives a fuck really either."

Morloth, what planet are you on? Only a very small (and particularly dim) proportion of the population would not know that gay meant homosexual. It is used as an insult by the ignorant and the prejudiced but that doesn't mean the word has "moved on". And any half-decent person who thought about this for more than 10 seconds would give a lot more than a fuck really. FGS

Morloth, just suppose one day (God forbid) you or a loved one lost their sight or became disabled, would it be much comfort to know that 'cripo' or 'shit-eye' was the latest in word? Why use a word that is offensive when you can rib using so many others wink

Actaully MS, it's not vital to explain this to our son, it's just a given. We rarely talk about it. He doesn't know any different, yet.

I really don't see what's confusing about mentioning that people are different - she can't have failed to notice already.

DP, I was just using your quote as an example to show what the kids would say. Sorry.

BS - Yeah, it may well be dodgy ground to ask a child if he / she was gay and I would NEVER ask a child this sort of question out of this context, but the very fact that a child has brought up an insult like this pretty much shows me their reaction. I would happily call a parent and explain what I had said to the child and why.

Going off topic a bit, but I also always challenge kids who use the insult "freshie or FOB," to kids with African names or accents, so awful.

VM, why do you think it's so out of control now? Why, when society in general seems to be moving in the right direction, is this so bad in schools?

Miss Sunny - something along the lines of "F says she's got two mummies & they're both coming on the trip tomorrow. How can she have two mummies instead of a mummy & a daddy?"

I hope that if they used gay as an insult you'd correct them.

But how do you avoid telling your DC about gay relationships? If they ask a direct question. As mine have at various times. Even if you didn't want them to know for whatever reason, you can only avoid explaining if you lie. Which isn't a good idea.

Some gay people knew at 5, yes.

and teenagers DO worry about their sexuality. Of course it's an issue for a lot of them.

and I don't care if the majority of the population doesn't care, I think it matters. I feel differently from the majority of the population on loads of issues, that's not a problem for me. most people are bigoted, ignorant and wrong grin

Gay kids and adults, and lots of others care Morloth.

"I don't like to think my dd's teacher may speak to her this way whilst she is young, that's what I meant." - Miss sunny, your DD is 5 and no doubt very cute.

Victoriamac is talking about mouthy teenagers who will have the last word if at all possible, know it ALL, and whose life would be complete if they could manage to get the better of a teacher.

There is a world of difference between the two ages.

Miss Sunny - If a child is using offensive language then they do need to know that is wrong, it is back to the whole Big Brother debate with the "n" word, if ANYONE finds it offensive, it is offensive, whether it was intended to be or not. If children are happy to use the word gay as an insult in my presence then they know I will engage them in a conversation about it. I am a secondary school teacher and this has reached a point now where it is out of control. If it doesn't bother you that your children use offensive words then I wish to God that you were one of the parents I met on parents evening. BTW I teach PSHE and Citizenship, so sex and human rights are totally appropriate topics to be teaching.

VM...i'm not using my religion to excuse anything...i don't have a problem with homosexuals., i couldn't give a toss what consenting adults do with each other....i was just saying that prejudices do exist.

i'm catholic, my religion has views on homosexuality..some i agree with, some i dont.

You know what I love? I love how people actually really pretend to care about this stuff on websites. If people really did give a crap then it wouldn't be an issue.

Gay (or ghey as it is spelled in online games) is now an insult, the word has moved on. The kids don't care that you find it offensive and have all this background. They just don't care, neither do I and I don't believe that the majority of the population gives a fuck really either.

But you said you wouldn't tell her about gay relationships until she's older. I think 5 is old enough to know some people have two mums etc, it doesn't have to be in any detail.

That's it though isn't it, without a parent there watching the tv with children and explaining, what's mischievious bit of merriment for teenagers/adults could become twisted and misunderstood.

As long there's a march called 'Gay Pride', encompassing both the original use of the word, feeling happy at being gay and laterly used meaning of being homosexual, the use of the word in the playground will still have a homophobic undertone.

Can I just ask - Victoriamac's ideas to say to children saying this sort of thing are great, but as a staff member, are you allowed to ask school children something like "are you gay"?

I'd be nervous of doing that, for fear of being accused of asking the children personal/prurient questions. Is it OK though?

". Gay is used now to mean crap/naff."

But what the word actually means is a homosexual person. And. more to the point, it is the word that the majority of homosexual people would choose to describe themselves.

Would you be happy if your children informed you that the word "girl" now meant crap or naff? Would you just say "Oh, well, that's what it means now, my daughter will just have to put up with the word that describes a vital part of her being now meaning crap?" Because that's what you are saying gay people have to do.

Don't really have anything intelligent to say on this (LeninGrad et al are far more eloquent than I could be) but I must say that I'd really disappointed that people on here are willing and able to defend kids using gay as a random insult. My DCs know not to use it and would not want to use it (I hope!)

^"there will always be prejudices against homosexuals, just like there are with certain other groups of society...you will never eradicate prejudice completely...alot of it is to do with religious beliefs."^

A lot of it is to do with religious beliefs, indeed this is what kids at school always tell me, but as I always point out, both the Old Testament and the Quran make it very clear that it is not our place to judge others, but God's. I have had conversations with many young people about this and it is often a conversation they find difficult to grasp.

Quran 46:9 Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. God is the ONLY one who can judge humans."

Using religion as an excuse to hurt others is a lazy way of explaining your own prejudices unless you are au fait with the whole text and its contexts.

I don't like to think my dd's teacher would let another child get away with using gay as an insult.

Miss Sunny - what WOULD you say to my DD or Leningrad's DS?

Some more info on why it might be so prevalent nowadays:

"Why does it happen?

The root cause may well be prejudice against gay and lesbian people. Even very young children, who do not understand what homosexuality is, may be encouraged to indulge in homophobic behaviour by this general prejudice.

Individual motivations may be more complicated and, as in the case of other forms of bullying, may include a desire for power or a need for affiliation: some people gain satisfaction from imposing their power on others and a group will be strengthened if someone else is outside that group. Identifying people as being different because of their gender orientation may be a convenient excuse for isolating and persecuting them. The bonds that tie the members of a group together are strengthened because the members are not “different”.

Fear may also be a motivation - as the word “homophobic” suggests. This can be a fear of the unknown, a fear of someone who is perceived to be different, or a fear which is based on uncertainty about the nature of their own developing sexuality:

“Keep away poofta”.

“Here he comes, backs to the wall”.

Many adolescent boys say that the worst thing anyone can call you is “gay”. In accusing others of being gay they may seek to demonstrate their own masculinity."

www.antibullying.net/homophobicinfo3.htm

IMO avoiding letting children know about the existence of same-sex relationships is part of the problem, making it seem something undesirable, to be hidden.

Why should any child be too young to understand that some women love other women, some men love other men? If they are old enough to spot that people often live in couples, they're old enough to know that.

And especially for a child who might be gay (and how will we know which of our children might be?) - surely it's better for them to know, from the start, that to love people of the same sex, and live with them, is a possible and acceptable way to live?

Because something doesn't offend or bother you MissSunny, does that mean it's OK to discount the fact that it does offend and bother others?

hey kitty!..little britain is compulsory viewing....so politically incorrect.

MissSunny, are you for real?!!

I like some of Little Britain too but if my children watched it and if they started copying what was said on it I would explain to them in no uncertain terms that s comedy programmes take things to extremes in order to make us laugh - but the same things said in real life are completely unacceptable and very hurtful.

Oh man, you all sound so old.

no victoriamac ignore miss sunny i think that's a great response. keep on with it. Some things are fine to laugh about in school but not this. Homosexual young people have a terrible time in our secondary schools.

Hey dp, I love Little Britain too and Tom Baker's voiceovers are inspired.

MissSunny, what are you going to tell her if she's in my son's class and asks why he's making two Mothers' Day cards?

Miss Sunny - my 8-year-old DD has two mummies & we both help out on school trips etc. If your DD was in the same class & commented on this, what would you say?

oh maggiebeebeau....my parents are irish...i've heard every irish joke ever invented..in 15 different languages.

So, Miss Sunny - you'd be happy with your children using words like "spazz" and "slag' - they don't really mean it, they just mean that whoever they are talking abotu is a bit naff?

Daftpunk, I hope this analogy might help...

We all know that gay is meant disparagingly. When I lived in England occassionally I would hear things that were ludicrous, or overly bureaucratic described as being 'Irish'.

I just used to seeeeeeethe when I heard that. HOw did that word seep into the language that it also became understood to mean 'wonky' or 'backwards' or 'done in an inefficient way'??

I'm not gay, but I think it would similarly annoy me to hear a crappy dairy lea lunch described as gay...

lol KB...ain't little britain just great.... the fat bald one is gay.. so i guess they can get away with it.

My DS has just turned 3 and one of teh local kids has written on his football which he was playing out with "Sam's gay, and he doesn't know we wrote this". Luckily he can't actually read. so i haven't bothered to tell him.
I think the use of the term 'gay' as a playground insult is absolutely awful. When i was at school people used to say 'spastic' (please no offence meant to anyone with cp) and it was awful. You wouldn't get away with that now and you shouldn't get away with gay either.

Iklboo, LOL, we should get Susie Dent on their case.

Emily Howard is a tranny, not gay.

It is the prevalence round our way for oh-so-witty grafiiti to read 'x is gay'
I have the urge to write underneath 'I'm so glad x is so cheerful' and let the oiks try and figure it out

I think some of it might have roots in Little Britain. Is it possible that some children become confused that it's alright for us to laugh at Sebastian being ridiculously infactuated (to the point of insane jealousy & full frontal nudity) with the PM and for the moustached Emily Howard to skip along in her dress, misapprehending the sense of what the sketches are actually poking fun at?

i'm in my thirties BS so not young..ha ha.. but homosexuality has been around since time began...i don't ever remember anyone at my school being called "gay"...(obviously not in it's new sense)....just wondering why it's used alot more now?

Gay was used freely at my mixed sex school in the 80s, and it wasn't meant nicely.

I would be fine with my children using gay as a descriptive term, for themselves or others. But not, ever, as an insult.

Yep, BS, we've covered that. Factual descriptions are fine, insults aren't.

dp's doing alright - she recognises it's more prevalent and is wondering why. The first step is acknowledgement.

Actually, I do have a theory: it's not challenged enough so it's got its pernicious roots in and will take some shifting now.

People are uncomfortable discussing sex and sexuality with kids and brush these things under the carpet instead of facing them head on.

I went to an all girls school too and we never used it. My cousins and brothers of friends didn't use it either. At a certain age, 13/14yrs of age,(?)a child surely becomes more culturally aware and realises that a raft of the coolest musicians, writers, artists & designers are gay and they seem to be having a lot of fun. Is it an inverted envy of creative energy or is that taking it too far? In my schooldays, Rupert Everett was swooned over by girls and boys alike, even the straight ones grin

Might I suggest that no-one engages with daft punk on this subject - it's a bit of a blind spot with her.

Do you allow it in the context of homosexuality, seeker?

eg in the sentence "John Barrowman is gay." < sob at writing that >

"BS..why do you think that is?...because when i was at school no one was ever called gay....it seems to have got worse " - well I don't know how old you are DP, probably older than me (most people are) but as I said, homophobia used to be acceptable and if you said someone was gay, or lesbian, the teacher would presume you were insulting them badly, and been down on you like a ton of bricks.

Now if the teacher presumes someone is being insulted by being called gay or lesbian, that teacher implicitly looks homophobic. therefore "gay" has been allowed to grow into a catch-all insult kids can get away with.

A KITKAT?

I'm deeply shocked.

'gay" is one of the few banned words in my house. And before someone say it's no use banning it because they will still use it out of the house - I know they will, but I want them to know that it is unacceptable, and that some people are prepared to make a stand about it.

For the record, some of the other banned words are'spazz' "crip' and 'slag'. I bet people don't say it's no use trying to stop children using those words because they are just part of their everyday vocabulary and their meanings have changed!

I perceive and wonder about that too dp. Maybe it's to do with the passing of the baton from race to sexuality as a marker of difference, maybe it's because few kids are visibly out so other kids don't really know about or have any gay friends.

I don't know, I will go away and think about it. Gay kids, or those perceived to be gay or otherwise different, are the primary target for this. Maybe the pool of targets is decreasing and is now concentrated.

maybe it's more a boy thing then...i went to an all girls school.

I think at best it's a lazy term and at worst, it's offensive. It's reminiscent of the level of wit used in the execreble 'Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps' depicting lowly educated characters and the 'comedy' of the dead end situation they've found themselves in.

At the core of it, is homophobia. No child who feels straight (and you know from an early age) wants to be called gay so it becomes an easy form of abuse. I'd rather Oscar Wilde than a dullard.

'gay' seems to be the insult du jour round our way as well.
I think it's awful and have told my boys if they ever utter gay as an insult they'll be grounded for life...

BS..why do you think that is?...because when i was at school no one was ever called gay....it seems to have got worse

I have worked in a secondary school and the word "gay" is used as an insult frequently.

I don't care how many times people say "oh nowadays it just means lame, dorky, naff etc" you can tell it doesn't just mean that - it means lame, dorky, naff and homosexual. It is usually followed up by other references to gay practices.

When I'd would intervene and tell the child saying this to pack it in, I'd get:

"There's nothing wrong with being gay, miss. I wasn't being nasty," in a sanctimonious tone.

The next step for me is to point out that of course there is nothing wrong with being gay, but they were using the word as an insult. This then makes it look as if I am agreeing with them that the person they are picking on is gay, which if they were unhappy about being called that, is far from helpful. And all this is while a lesson is trying to take place.

I think some kids have learned that they are not allowed to express homophobia, but they still have homophobia, so they have found a way of insulting people which is very difficult to put a stop to.

Agree BoM, never allowed any of that crap here and been very glad as ds1 (9) told me a while back he thinks he is gay

gay is not an insult it's just a definition of sexual behaviour

I do not think 'gay' being used as a synonym for 'naff' is acceptable, and I won't have it used like that in our house, because I don't want DD to feel that there is anything wrong with being gay, because what if she is gay? I don't want my baby feeling bad about herself, or feeling that if she comes out to us it would be a big thing that would change/strain our relationship. For several people I know, 'how will I tell my parents?' and the worry about disappointing them or letting them down by being gay has been a really traumatic and distancing thing. And I think in many cases these views on parental attitudes are deduced from throwaway comments, and things like letting 'gay = naff' go uncorrected.

Yes, there will always be prejudiced people but then there will always be ignorant people. I'd like to hope I can do my bit to avoid DD growing up to be ignorant.

I'm finding this really encouraging for my kids. No idea if they will be gay but their Mums and Dad are and they will suffer at school and in life if we all allow this to continue.

I appreciate the people questioning what's wrong with it too; if you don't ask, we can't explain and nobody gains.

bullying

PS I only saw page one blush

and went into ranty mood, sorry blame the menopause.

It's what I think though and I'm so glad other people find it objectionable too.

Why do parents collude with children using this term in a derogatory way? I always challenge it, being gay is not being a second class citizen or in any way 'worse' than anyone or anything else.

If everyone including schools and parents challenged this it would do some awareness raising and emphasise that being different is not wrong. But that would take some thought and some effort wouldn't so let's not bother.

I'm very cross about this.

It's not the same as saying something is poncey or wanky, those are about something you choose, not something that people intrinsically are. It's more like saying something is spastic. Which I also wouldn't tolerate as an insult.

It may be true that some people will always be homophobic, and maybe racist, sexist, disablist, and so on. But I don't tolerate such attitudes among my friends (I don't have friends with these attitudes), or at work (would challenge people) or among my children or visiting children.

had this with DS last year. called something gay to mean lame or stupid. i explained what gay meant, and that to use it is an insult made him look very silly. have picked his friends up on it. and their use of other words i find inappropriate / offensive.

far better than throwing your hands up in the air and saying there is no point as there will always be prejudice. i think a zero tolerance policy on things like this is better

appreciate language changes and develops, but does not mean that a word describing sexuality should become synonymous with lame/silly or whatever.

As far as I have experienced almost every secondary school is taking homophobic bullying (including the use of the word gay as an insult) extremely seriously, i.e. at the same level as racist bullying.
My tack is to challenge the person using the insult by asking them if the thing hey are calling gay is having sexual intercourse with other things of it's own gender. E.g. "Really, Simon's shoes are gay? Have you seen Simon's shoes having sexual intercourse with other shoes of the same sex? That's strange." Kids usually dumbfounded and shut up. If a kid calls another kid gay as an insult I would usually take the same line, get the offending kid out of class, ask him if he understands what gay means, ask if they have ever seen said child actually having sex with someone of the same sex (answer always no). Then ask the offending kid if they are gay themselves (always a defensive "no"),finish the conversation with: "Good, then you never ever have to concern yourself about whether someone else is gay ever again in your life do you?" Shuts them up.

I have yet to be able to overcome the view from large groups of boys that "black men can't be gay." hmm

I even did a whole lesson on this issue (Stephen K Amos' programme Batty Man, is really good), but was met with the smart reply that Justin Fashanu was adopted by white people and they "made him gay."

LG..there will always be prejudices against homosexuals, just like there are with certain other groups of society...you will never eradicate prejudice completely...alot of it is to do with religious beliefs.

when kids say gay it's the same as when mners call things poncey or wanky, or even wnaky if you're a fish. it does not mean the apricots are homosexual. the same as nice ham is not homosexual and storage baskets are not masturabtory.

MNHQ - re: DOD, the phrase is 'that's so gay', not 'just'. You're so not down with the kids, nice to see this highlighted though smile

Afraid not Fennel, it is truly shocking. Our local LBGT group has just got more funding for their outreach work in schools which I'm sure will have a hugely positive effect on the lives of many young people.

It's still like the bloomin' Dark Ages wrt this out there. It seems so at odds with the progress made on race and, to some extent, gender. Maybe it is to do with 'visibility'. Although I think people with disabilities still get a very rough ride on all this too.

Also, kids are just too bloomin' trusting and things spread like wildfire in a school community. Look at the comment on one of the links I sent about a boy telling one or two and the whole school knowing within days. And there is no escape if the bullying starts, other than withdrawing from school.

As an adult, I've had to positively encourage people to feel free to tell others about me, my DP and kids. I understand and appreciate their concern for my privacy and the lack of gossip, but I don't want my life perceived as some sort of secret either.

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to regret giving my dd a gay packed lunch?