To start a thread inspired by, but not about, indyref?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

In the run up to the Scottish Independence Referendum, we had some fabulous, spirited, enlightening and enthusiastic debates on this board. I know I learned a lot from talking with so many politically aware people, and a few people have suggested that we start a thread to try and continue some of the best parts of the discussions.

So this is a thread for us to discuss what we feel is wrong with our country, some possible solutions and how we can do something about it. It's not a thread for debating independence, justifying our votes or for recriminations and anger; more somewhere to chat about some of the underlying issues such as our constitution/political structure, welfare, social justice and equality which concerned people on both sides of the independence debate. I'm also not proposing this as an exclusively Scottish debate although I suspect it will be dominated by us, as many of these are UK-wide issues.

So, what needs to change? How can we make our individual countries and union better?

[SapphireMoon]

Hello new thread!
I come from this from living in England [with an English accent] but Scottish heritage.
I am interested in how this all moves forward for the whole of the UK as well as acknowledging how promises made to those in Scotland are honoured.

[livingzuid]

I would like to see more cross-border action. I don't know how but I suspect there is a generation disenfranchised from what being British is. Divisions exist everywhere, in how we work, our language about our key cultures. I have been amazed at all the references to Scotland when looking through my things for work, but nothing about how things benefit the UK as a whole and how Scotland makes such a big contribution to this.

I also think that has been allowed to happen, not just by politicians but leading organisations and business in England. The responsibility goes both ways. Great things happen in England and Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland that should be celebrated in all areas.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

There is definitely a huge issue with political disengagement -I hope we don't lose the interest we have in Scotland.

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

Marking place - I want to stay engaged and will keep checking in here.

I think we have to realise that the rest of the UK are way behind in the debate, and I'm worried how the mainstream /more right-wing press will frame it.

Please, any English, Welsh and Northern Irish pp interested in what's going on, come here - normal MN rules apply with knobs on.

[Bowlersarm]

I think the by product of the referendum that no one foresaw is that there will be a political change over the whole country; and secondly, people have become hugely interested in politics.

I don't think it'll be just a case of 'no' voted, back to business as usual.

I quite like the idea that Gordon Brown may have a bit of a political revival as well.

[PacificDogwood]

There is a good thread going about how to replicate the high turn-out for other elections - food for thought.
I am very glad the turn out was as high as it was, and that the margin was as it was as nobody can argue with the result even though I did not get the result I wanted.

It really upsets me that so many people do not engage with the political process in our democracy - we are very privileged to have a vote; we should jolly well use it!

And yy, I think the IndyRef will have reverberations for some time to come, not just in Scotland, but in the other Union nations too.

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

... and of course Scots, whichever side you ended up on, come and chat.

Coffee, tea, chocolate cake and the whole Tunnocks range available at all hours.

Wine, gin, martini and of course whisky will be administered strictly on basis of need all the time

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

Yes, there will be huge reverberations from IndyRef - the whole UK should get involved.

[MorrisZapp]

Right. I have a question about devolution in general. When governments devolve powers to local areas (on the news last night they mentioned Manchester as an example of where English devolution might go) how does this differ from local government ie the councils?

I ask this as an Edinburgh resident, where our local council is wildly unpopular.

[livingzuid]

I don't think it'll be just a case of 'no' voted, back to business as usual.

Yes, agree. The overall market will take some time to recover I have been informed by a few people via work. There are still large question marks over what devolution will look like and particularly around income tax rates and what they could be. So people are still uncertain, which means sitting on things until there is more clarity. Although it is a bit better already.

[livingzuid]

morris am I allowed to mention the word tram for said unpopularity or is it just general?

I too have a question over income tax - or rather a concern. As I understand it the Scottish Executive can now have this devolved to them/they make use of the powers they had. All of this points to an increase in taxation. How will this look in real life and how will this damage things further? I think income tax rises would have been inevitable with either a Yes or a No but it will not be seen that way will it?

[WooWooOwl]

What is wrong with our country IMO (as a true softy southerner) is that there isn't enough equality of opportunity, or enough emphasis on personal responsibility.

The government needs to ensure that it provides very high quality basics. We need better healthcare, better social services, better education. The postcode lottery surrounding those things needs to stop. When the government can adequately meet the needs of people who have mental health issues, and make sure that people who have disabilities aren't left struggling to achieve the basics, and they can guarantee that every child will receive a good education as long as their parents support them, then they turn it back on individuals and have an expectation that they, on the whole will make sensible choices for their lives. Obviously the government also needs to ensure a decent economy so that jobs are available to everyone, and people need to be prepared to take any work available even when it's not their ideal.

I feel like at the moment we have people blaming the government for their misfortunes, and government blaming individuals for the situations they find themselves in. That needs to change on both sides.

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

Hmm, yes re. income tax.

I don't know what the SNP policy on that is - I would guess that they would like to increase the top rate, but what would be the consequences?

btw, we are top-rate tax payers, and if the rate goes up a 'reasonable' amount for Scottish residents via a democratic process, then so be it. Although I would then be looking very closely at how the increased revenue was spent.

[Luckytwo]

Thank you SC for starting a new thread, the other one went a bit crazy.
I am not sure how it is all going to pan out. A few of my 'nicer' English 'friends' have been saying well these promises better not cost me more or be at the expense of services I may need. It will certainly be an interesting general election in May, hopefully the engagement we have seen in Scotland will be infectious.
I think that the Labour Party is in a bit if a pickle - the traditional central belt labour heartland voted yes, I think that's a clear message that there needs to be change there if they want to retain their seats in WM .
Ed is already trying to delay the efforts to come through on the promises he was a party to.

[MehsMum]

If it wasn't so early, I'd be begging for a single malt...

I am English, in England, and have just listened to Ed Milliband on the Andrew Marr Show. I was using words I never normally use as he weaved and dodged around what I consider a key issue: English votes on English issues. It is deeply undemocratic for Scots MPs to able to vote on matters which do not concern their constituents, so young Ed has just got himself a copper-bottomed guaranteed that his lot will not be seeing my vote at the next election. I don't know if it would work better to have an English parliament or devolved government for the regions, but I am convinced that the current mess needs sorting out.

The weaving and dodging is, pretty clearly, one reason why so many people just don't give a flying monkey for politics and politicians: straight answers are in very short supply, self-interest seems to be more important than principles, and short-term fixes are regarded as doing the job. You trot off to the ballot box feeling dismally sure that your X in the box will change nothing.

There are a lot of live issues at the moment which play right into the hands of Farage et al. This is worrying, especially when so many basic constitutional points are outstanding.

Sorry: this is a bit of a jumbled post (I am normally a slightly clearer thinker) but I have 101 things to be doing.

[livingzuid]

There was also something interesting posted on the last thread too about the view of the UK from overseas which prompted me to think of my own experiences. Unless it's a country like Oz or NZ who understand the nuances, I found everyone called us England or the UK. When I tried to explain the four nation thing everyone just looked blankly at me and carried on calling it England. They also didn't understand when I said we were in Europe but kind of not really at the same time. Then when DH came here he understood what I meant. In many ways we have quite a unique position in the EU which I would not like to see lost.

I wouldn't call Scotland a region at all. It is a country in its own right but also part of a bigger whole which is actually mainly where we appear on the international stage. So really externally no one cares and it is just us that gets into a pickle over things . Which in all seriousness is quite important as it comes down to national identity (partly). I think that is all over the place at the moment and does allow the extreme nationalists and UKIP and the like to get a foothold.

In fact I am struggling to think of anywhere else in the world that has the setup we do?

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

I don't have a problem with Scottish MPs not voting on English matters - the problem is a practical one, as the more powers are devolved to Scotland, Wales or wherever, the fewer matters there are for Scottish-Westminster MPs to debate and vote on - possibly just defence, foreign policy and ... hmm

So we'd have largely redundant Westminster MPs kicking their heels, while the vast majority of Scottish decisions are made by MSPs at Holyrood.

But we will still need a presence in Westminster, and it needs to have some weight. How do we do that?

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

WooWooOwl I agree with a lot of what you say.

I think the issues on the table now are who makes these decisions and where - how well individual policies work out in practice is something for individual devolved parliaments to assess.

[Luckytwo]

It's also going to be hugely expensive to run - it will be a 2 tier/class thing , not sure that's in the best interest of anyone.

[WhatWouldFreddieDo]

Yes Luckytwo, it was always going to be 2-tier and therefore more expensive.

But are we looking at a fully devolved Scottish Parliament with no Scottish-Westminster MPs, and perhaps a select MSP cabinet that works for us in WM on the undevolved issues?

[ChippingInLatteLover]

Morning all

It's LatteLoverLovesLattes here :)

I have changed back to my regular name now (ChippingIn with various endings!). I have been ChippingIn since I started on MN, I changed to LatteLoverLovesLattes for a personal post as my bonkers SIL reads MN I'm sure and I just wanted a bit of privacy for a thread. However, I kept getting caught up in threads and then ended up on the Indy threads under that name, I should have thought about it before I started posting on there, but I didn't. So I just want to make it clear that absolutely no hiding or deception was at play.

(I'd rather the names weren't linked other than on these threads as I'm still trying to stay under the radar of some people who I don't think will read these).

[BardarbungaBardarbing]

.

[ChippingInLatteLover]

I'm British, born in England and living in England.

The Referendum has really got me engaged in politics again after a long time of feeling like 'They're all the bloody same, what's the point'. I have always voted, but it's always felt like a bit of a waste of time.

Now I am really engaged again & I would like to take that momentum forward and do what I can to make the UK a better place for everyone.

I need coffee

[ChippingInLatteLover]

StatisticallyChallenged thank you for starting the thread :)

[Chapina]

Hi, joining in. I'm not British (or European) and if, before moving, I connected the UK with Scotland and England (sorry Wales and NI!) and connected Britain with Scotland and England, but if someone said they were British, I'd assume they were English. I'm not explaining it well, but it's a complete mix up. Maybe a bit similar to the UAE, but not really?

I am really angry at Miliband. I used to support Labour, but Ed is a terrible leader and Labour as a whole is almost indistinguishable from the other main parties. Might have to start voting for the Monster Raving Looney party.

I support tax raising powers I think, but I worry what the SNP would do to income tax. I think that could affect people choosing to work here in Scotland, they can already work in Cardiff or London or Manchester, so if their income will be heavily affected, I think there would be even more of a brain drain (sorry if it's not the right phrase).