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to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

(540 Posts)
Itsaboatjack Thu 15-Nov-12 23:46:53

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

ElaineBenes Wed 21-Nov-12 23:52:07

Hamas is just as responsible for the high Palestinian death toll. Read the un goldstone report.

Both Hamas and Israel don't show sufficient care for Palestinian casualties although it would seem that Israel at least put a little bit of forethought in how to minimize them.

ElaineBenes Wed 21-Nov-12 23:46:22

Hamas started with suicide bombs in 1992. It was the start of the peace process, there was plenty of hope then.

They wanted to derail the peace process, they didnt and dont want. They got their wish.

I agree that the civilian deaths are a tragedy. But there are people painting Hamas as some kind of benevolent society which just happens to have a few armed members. It's not.

BegoniaBampot Wed 21-Nov-12 23:43:29

"150 Palestinian dead, 5 Israelis. Who do you think is the most aggressive, most deadly side here? ", I don't think this proves who is the most aggressive and who would like to kill the most of their enemy, just that one side is better armed than the other. And as for fair fight, if you we're fighting would you fight fairly so that you only used the exact same force as your attacker? If a burglar came at you with a knife and you had a gun would you set aside your gun and pick up a knife (exact same size of course, if you are taller maybe you get kneel down or tie one arm behind your back).

splashymcsplash Wed 21-Nov-12 23:42:19

Edam Hardly.

Israel hardly has much control over the imports into Gaza anyway, when this many missiles have been smuggled in. If Hamas put as much effort into humanitarian efforts as it did into weapon smuggling then no doubt Gaza would be a much better place.

Have you read or watched the links I provided? You seem to be cherry picking information to reach your conclusions.

In case anyone is in doubt as to how biased the BBC is:
www.supremecourt.gov.uk/docs/UKSC_2010_0145_ps_v2.pdf

edam Wed 21-Nov-12 23:28:46

Interesting Freudian slip there, Splashy. As for explaining the hideous death toll, no, you tried to justify it, and failed. Unless you think blaming the Palestinians for not having enough medicines to treat the sick and not having the same infrastructure as Israel, when Israel controls the import of goods into Gaza, is somehow convincing? Maybe you could ask Netanyahu to provide missile defence systems to Gaza in the name of a fair fight. You'd be a long time waiting, though.

defuse Wed 21-Nov-12 23:17:54

If Palestine had security, if they had a reason to live, do you think groups like Hamas would get votes? Despite the fact that Hamas also did a lot for social welfare in Gaza, people would not vote Hamas if they had their freedom.

splashymcsplash Wed 21-Nov-12 23:14:14

*inequality

splashymcsplash Wed 21-Nov-12 23:13:52

Edam I have already explained why there is such an equality in the death toll. It seems you overlooked that.

Anyone who thinks that Hamas are anything but a terrorist group should read this: Hamas charter
or watch this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

defuse Wed 21-Nov-12 23:08:34

Israel is not targeting military targets, it is targeting votes. And making Gaza into a pile of rubble, a prison camp and exerting control and denying Palestinians any dignity wins votes - in the name of 'security'.

Looking at Palestine and Israel reminds me of David and the Goliath. The irony of it!

edam Wed 21-Nov-12 23:08:34

150 Palestinian dead, 5 Israelis. Who do you think is the most aggressive, most deadly side here? And who are the bulk of the victims? Who ran out of medicines to treat the injured? Not the Israelis.

What most people want is an end to violence and killing full stop - a dead person is a dead person and a grieving family, whether they are Palestinian or Israeli. But you can't pretend that both sides are equally aggressive or suffering equally. 150 v. 5 says that ain't true.

I didn't say Hamas was either legitimate or illegitimate, btw. You'd have to ask Israel about that, given their leaders were jolly keen on supporting Hamas back in the day, as opponents to Yasser Arafat. hmm

splashymcsplash Wed 21-Nov-12 23:02:43

Edam Apart from Hamas admitting to using women and children as human shields, what do you think of Hamas firing on densely populated areas in Israel? Missiles have landed on schools, kindergartens, flats etc in Israel. The death toll in Israel has been low due to Israelis having safe rooms, the Iron Dome, and bomb shelters. How is Hamas legitimate?

squoosh Wed 21-Nov-12 23:00:48

Oh Israel will be fine, they've got the combined diplomatic weight of USA and UK behind them

edam Wed 21-Nov-12 22:58:25

'Israel is targeting military targets' - yeah, right, like the home where 10 members of one family were killed, from grandparents to babies. The home that Israel initially claimed belonged to a Hamas leader only whoops, they had to admit they got the 'wrong' target. Which is inevitable when you fire into a densely populated urban area. It's like someone claiming firing on inner London is legitimate.

PessaryPam Wed 21-Nov-12 22:53:44

splashy of course.

splashymcsplash Wed 21-Nov-12 22:51:21

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/8402973/A-family-slaughtered-in-Israel-doesnt-the-BBC-care.html

splashymcsplash Wed 21-Nov-12 22:50:25

Pessary you are joking right?

edam Wed 21-Nov-12 22:50:10

Thank heavens for the ceasefire - I hope against hope that it holds.

150 Palestinians and 5 Israelis have been killed in the past week.

PessaryPam Wed 21-Nov-12 22:49:10

Surely the BBC is a totally balanced and unbiased reporter of news splashy?

splashymcsplash Wed 21-Nov-12 22:45:48

Yet more anti-Israel propaganda. It's not really surprising though, considering how biased the BBC are.

Is anyone questioning the legitimacy of Hamas firing rockets into civilian areas? Or the fact that 10% explode before they even reach Israel, killing Palestinian children? (Whose photos they then use as anti-Israel propaganda).

Israel is targeting military targets. Hamas are targeting civilians indiscriminately.

Did anyone here about how a block of flat in Rishon Lezion (a highly populated suburb of Tel Aviv) was hit today? Probably not, as the BBC has overlooked reporting it.

Hamas broke the ceasefire and are now claiming that Israel is the aggressor, ironic much?

PessaryPam Wed 21-Nov-12 22:36:31

Apologies for DM etc though.

PessaryPam Wed 21-Nov-12 22:32:19
BegoniaBampot Wed 21-Nov-12 22:03:42

I understand that but then they know that eventually the Israelis will bite back to protect their own. Seems a ceasefire has been declared - lets see what happens.

defuse Wed 21-Nov-12 21:04:20

What do Palestinians have left to lose?

Yes, the rockets are provocative, but when there is no hope, then what are they going to strive towards?

BegoniaBampot Wed 21-Nov-12 20:59:56

Or even 'when the IRA targeted the UK'.

BegoniaBampot Wed 21-Nov-12 20:57:58

Can understand folk who have links, say family and friends in Gaza and Israel being angry and biased. What has annoyed me is the folk from the UK who insist Israel has had no provocotian to take action against the constant bombardment of rockets. Dismissing these attacks of no consequence just because the death rate is relatively low and many rockets are shot down or miss the intended target. these attacks aren't really reported in the UK press, have they no imagination what it must be like to live with that constant threat, the air raid sirens going off, your children and loved ones not with you and only having seconds to find cover. Running for bomb shelters, schools and everyday living being constantly disrupted? Think of the children and people living this life - can you really just nonchalantly dismiss this? If so then I guess you have no complaint of when the IRA agreed the UK, any Al Queida attacks, the 7/7 bombings - after all they are just a minority fighting against a much better equipped and bigger oppressor. I think there is a lot of hipocracy on this board from folk who would soon change their mind if they had to deal with what the folk in Southern Israel have been dealing with.

The Palestinians do have major reason for the hate and have provocation, I can understand the need to fire on Israel, carry out suicide bombings - but it doesn't seem to be getting them any further forward and they end up annoying a much bigger and better equipped enemy who can harm them more than they can harm them. Don't know when both sides will have had enough and actually try and find a compromise for a more peaceful co existence.

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