to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

(540 Posts)
Itsaboatjack Thu 15-Nov-12 23:46:53

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 12:55:18

Palestine shouldn't do it and nor should Israel. Which they have in the past. Israel have killed far more Palestinians than vice versa. Israel has expanded past it's original borders and eroded Palestine to the point where it barely exists.

I feel desperately sorry for the civilians on both sides. Civilians are never the victors in war. None of them deserve what is happening.

More Beta -- yes, you are totally right about Northern Ireland as well

pinkbraces -- the thing is, the right to self-defence does not give you a blank check. You still need to respond in a proportionate and discriminating manner.

There is no short-term tactical solution to this problem (although Israel's rocket defence systems seem to be working pretty well). The only solution is to do something to politically resolve the conflict, which for various reasons, as pointed out, is not likely to happen.

But the fact that those political responses are not likely, does not mean the military solution is the only solution. It is simply the only solution the current Israeli government is willing to take.

MrsMicawber Fri 16-Nov-12 13:13:58

However similar the conditions in in Dachau were to the conditions in Gaza, Gaza is not a concentration camp in that sense because the end result of Jews being herded into Dachau was for them all to be killed. The end result of Gazans being kept in Gaza is to stop Jews FROM being killed BY THEM.

If a Gazan is killed by an Israeli, it will be in a military attack by a serving soldier. Not in a nightclub by a teenage suicide bomber. Their babies may, sadly, be hit by shrapnel because Hamas operatives insist on using residential properties, schools and hospitals to store and launch weapons, but Israeli babies have their throats slit in their cots. A Palestinian captured by Israelis has a right to a university education whilst in jail. Israelis captured by Palestians are disembowelled, with their gutted bodies dragged through the streets.

Israeli children cower behind the Israeli military.

Hamas gunmen cower behind Palestianian children.

MrsMicawber Fri 16-Nov-12 13:19:19

It is also very important to realise that Hamas have a tendancy to over-report the amount of casualties they have suffered.

This clip is a typical example.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:23:32
Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:24:06

Think everybody should read the above link.

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 13:24:49

MrsMicawber, I suspect your post will go unanswered by most people posting in this thread, as they have ignored every single other argument, including the fact that Palestine has had multiple opportunities to reach an agreement and nothing will be acceptable bar total annihilation of the Israel State.

I was there that night, 100 metres down the pier from that nightclub bomb and saw the devastation it caused and how it ripped families apart.

I also watched the families of "martyrs" on Al Jazeera the next day being celebrated and offered lifetime pecuniary support, as well as social status.

None of this matters because people on this thread are prepared to legitimise terrorism because "Israel deserves it".

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 13:27:31

Alis I also think people should read the first comment following that article:

The article above is a typical piece of propaganda full of half truths and distortions designed to demonise Israel.

These articles sometimes work because the writer's know that many won't question their content and they know they'll reinforce prejudices and biased opinions.

11) Hamas puts its rocket launchers in urban areas deliberately, knowing that they will score propaganda points in any civilians are killed.

12) Hamas has been shown (there are videos on YouTube) to put civilians into buildings that have recently been used as launch sites. They then cry foul if the building is hit by the IAF

13) Hamas is not interested in compromise or deals or concessions. When they released on Israeli prisoner in exchange for over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners, those that returned to Gaza vowed to continue the cycle of violence. Convicted terrorists went home to plan more attacks.

You can't negotiate with an organisation that doesn't even think you have right to exist.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:30:41

Nobody is saying "Israel deserves it" PoppyAmex.

You say it is Israel's right to defend itself. Of course it is.

Is it not also Palestine's right to defend themselves against the erosion of their land? Against an onslaught of violence that has been going on for years? Israel far outweighs Palestine in terms of military power, technology and sheer numbers.

MrsMicawber Fri 16-Nov-12 13:32:04

Poppy - I grew up with Yoni Jesner - who had his head blown off by a suicide bomber as he sat on a bus. His organs were donated and a Palestinian girl got his kidney.

Gazans celebrated in the streets on 9/11. Did America deserve it, too?

Hamas won the elections in Gaza by throwing Fatah supporters off rooftops. Did they deserve it, too?

Sorry, but collective punishment is not lawful, or moral. Do you seriously think every single Gazan is out to kill Israelis? That all those women and children deserve to suffer because of the illegal acts of others?

There's more than 1.5 million Gazans. You're basically saying they all deserve what they're getting.

And as for this:

"If a Gazan is killed by an Israeli, it will be in a military attack by a serving soldier. Not in a nightclub by a teenage suicide bomber."

If that Israeli soldier is violating the laws of war, then this distinction really doesn't matter. And in any event, the Palestinians do not have a military or soldiers so by default all of their attacks will involve militants/terrorists.

And as I said earlier, the use of human shields does not give the other side the right to disregard those civilian lives.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:36:01

The comment is merely made by a reader. There is no proof that the article is propaganda.

I am absolutely not defending the course of action Hamas are taking. It is abhorrent on so many levels.

It is not hard to understand why a country that has been almost completely eradicated does not look favourably on Israel's existence,however wrong that is.

I can't see how Israel and Palestine will ever be able to compromise. One can only hope that they can.

x-post

I am sorry for the losses you have suffered and the things you have had to witness.

Terrorism is a terrible thing. I have my own experiences which I would rather not get into.

But for me personally, it does not justify a disproportionate response, which is what I think Israel has done (and the US, with the war in Iraq and about 90% of the war on terror).

MrsMicawber Fri 16-Nov-12 13:40:20

Alisvolatpropiis If they were defending themselves, yes. But they are not. How is the nonstop shelling of residential districts a defense? How is blowing up a hotel full of pensioners celebrating the Passover seder defence? a nightclub full of teenagers? a bus full of holidaymekers on their way to the seaside? a pizzashop?

FreudiansSlipper Fri 16-Nov-12 13:43:58

please do not make out that what the israeli soldiers are doing is not as cruel because it is shooting at children throwing stones the shooting of Muhammad al-Durrah brought the worlds attention to how the palestinians live

the problem now is the so many on both sides are full of hatred and this hatred is being used by both in power young men and women wanting to inflict harm on their enemy

I do not deny the cruelty the Israeli soldiers have suffered but the conditions these people have been forced to live is the real problem here you treat people like that this is what happens

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 13:44:39

And in any event, the Palestinians do not have a military or soldiers so by default all of their attacks will involve militants/terrorists."

This is utterly ridiculous! East Timor never had a military or soliders either and their resistance forces fought without ever committing terrorist attacks.

I'm disgusted with the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians have a horrendous history of violating Human Rights when it comes to Israeli soliders and civilians. Even when people that lived it are typing their experiences here and telling you about it.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:47:00

I did say I wasn't defending the course of action Hamas are taking.

Civilians never deserve to lose their lives. Terrorism is a disgusting act,born out of cowardice.

Neither Palestine nor Israel is behaving well.

But...governments and military actions aside...the Palestinian people have suffered greatly since 1948. It is disingenuous to say otherwise.

Both sides need to consider what will happen if this current conflict overspills into Egypt. This is a grave situation for both nations to be in,some compromise must be found before all out war is declared.

Princesstwat Fri 16-Nov-12 13:48:23

Speaking as someone with family ties in both countries , I have to be blunt and if I get flamed so be it. Israel are very clever in their propaganda against Palestine, they are and will continue to be thieves of land that is not theirs, and they will continue doing as they like whilst America back them up and keep spouting the same 'jihadist' 'war on terror' bullshit. Hamas do what they do to protect their own people, people that the Israelis slaughter daily and keep playing the anti semitism card. Israel is a disgrace, the US is equally as bad, and the Palestinians will continue to be labelled as terrorists and jihadists so long as the anti islam propaganda stands. Thats all I have to say.

ButHeNeverDid Fri 16-Nov-12 13:48:35

"does not justify the disproportionate response"

What would be proportionate?

Perhaps Israel should fire a rocket into Gaza for every rocket fired into Israel?

Would that be proportionate?

From a Palestinian perspective terrorism is a defence -- the only one they have. They don't have an army or proper weapons, they can't physically protect themselves from Israeli invasion, airstrikes, blockade, etc. The only thing they can do to hurt Israel is strike its most vulnerable targets.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to justify what they are doing, obviously terrroism is a war crime and it's appalling the things they have done. I'm just pointing out that it's really the only military response they have. But as they have found out, terrorism is usually a pretty bad strategy.

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 13:52:20

"Hamas do what they do to protect their own people"

Including using them as human shields and setting up bases in schools.

Anyway, I can say the same thing: Israel do what they do to protect their own people.

x-post

Poppy, where have I not acknowledged that Palestinians have committed war crimes too?

I think it was one of my first posts, I said both sides have committed war crimes, as is typical in war.

What I'm arguing against is the idea that it's okay for Israel to commit war crimes, because the Palestinians do it too. I think it's wrong for everyone to do these things.

LittleBairn Fri 16-Nov-12 13:57:34

YANBU I won't say any more because the way I feel about Israil is considered very unPC.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:57:56

I don't believe seizing land from the Palestinians could ever seriously be argued as being done by Israel to protect it's own people.

And we should keep in mind that is at the root of Palestine's anger towards Israel.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 16-Nov-12 14:00:11

WHat Isreal are also doing oppressing the Palestinians. people can not live like this they fight back in whatever way they can

we call that form of fighting back terrorism because it does not play by our rules the rules of those who have superior force or can afford to set these standards when it push come to shove rules go out of the window we have seen this time and time again here, in Iraq and Vietnam. It's war it is cruel whatever name you want to call it

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