to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

(540 Posts)
Itsaboatjack Thu 15-Nov-12 23:46:53

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

winnybella Thu 15-Nov-12 23:49:28

The intended targets are Hamas members. Hamas fires rockets into Israel with the intention of killing civilians, though.

winnybella Thu 15-Nov-12 23:53:19

Well, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
BBC

Itsaboatjack Fri 16-Nov-12 00:19:08

No I get who's involved and I've read the bbc article on it, but I just don't understand how it's not a war crime?

A lot of people would say it IS a war crime.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 00:38:16

Because Israel have licence to behave in a way no other country does. America will back them up to the bitter end.

The Palestine issue is disgusting and it should never have been allowed to deteriorate to this point. I feel so sorry for Palestinians.

crescentmoon Fri 16-Nov-12 00:40:04

Yanbu

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 00:41:44

Oh...YANBU and I think it is a war crime,but I'm nobody important in the great scheme of things.

ElaineBenes Fri 16-Nov-12 02:02:09

Are you talking about Hamas firing rockets into Israel with the express aim of killing civilians?

Israel is targeting Hamas terrorists. Not that I agree with it, the civilian damage is too high, but the intention is not to kill civilians.

And it's not true that Israel is allowed to do what it wants unlike other counties. Look at what Russia did in Chechnya! Yet Russia is a member of the security council. It's not an excuse but it pisses me off when people make out that Israel is somehow exceptionally evil. Lots of shit goes on, but the Palestinians are just as responsible for their own plight.

I feel sorry for the innocent civilians on both sides.

GrrrArghZzzzYaayforall8nights Fri 16-Nov-12 02:12:32

Are you referring to one or both sides? Both sides are firing missiles that are killing civilians, whether they are ^ targeting ^ them is up for debate.

In the case of Hamas, the rockets are a crime against humanity. Even with the mainly structural damage, the practically constant bombing of the people of Sderot and the surrounding areas (mainly populated by Mizrahi which many note as the Israeli government only seem interested in "fighting back" when the rocket target turned towards the richer whiter northern area) who are mainly poor farmers, trapped where they are with no resources, no recourse, and aren't enough bomb shelters in that area, is a tragedy whose scars will be for generations. Also the placing of rocket launchers in civilian zones.

Similarly, in the case of Likkud, the current operations in Gaza are killing many many innocent people, especially considering that Gaza is extremely densely populated. They themselves admit that they strike down most Hamas rockets while dealing the same number of far stronger missiles to Gaza. Even if one were to believe that the IDF were going after only going after very specific targets as they claim (highly debateable) the people who suffer and mainly die are the average, civilian, Palestinian people. Their treatment of Palestinians, and even their own people particularly on the wrong side of popular opinion (there have been riots recently, particularly around race) is criminal.

As far as I am concerned, the civilians on both sides are chess pieces that are being cynically manipulated and sacrificed by their leaders, basically being used as human shields for governments that should be facing charges of war crimes.

But then, so should many parts of the American government who are drone bombing (and 'double tapping' angry ) civilians across the world with barely a flicker against them. And North Korea's concentration camps. They are war crimes, but some seem able to get away with it because the institutions put in place to deal with them have failed.

moreyear Fri 16-Nov-12 02:13:00

I agree with Elaine - are you referring to the repeated Hamas firing of rockets into Israel with the express intention of murdering Israeli civilians? Israel is entitled to use force to protect its citizens against such attacks.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 16-Nov-12 02:22:58

YANBU O.P

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 02:43:55

I keep making myself promise I won't participate in this discussion but the casual Anti-semitism/Israel vilification really makes me angry.

I feel sorry for a nightclub full of six formers celebrating their graduation who got blown up in Tel Aviv. I feel sorry for their parents too.

I feel sorry for the little toddler who got her throat ripped open while sleeping in her bed.

War is a terrible thing but the Palestinians aren't innocent victims.

LulaBear Fri 16-Nov-12 03:13:03

It's a war-zone, and both sides throw bombs.

ElaineBenes Fri 16-Nov-12 04:06:17

I agree with your sentiments poppy, i also think the obsession with Israel and its vilification is politically correct and socially acceptable anti semitism.

I do wonder how people would respond if missiles were falling on London. Oh yeah, that happened once - the response was to carpet bomb Dresden. Only 60 years later are people even questioning if it is such a good idea to have a statue to bomber Harris in the centre of London.

dolcelatte Fri 16-Nov-12 04:35:48

YANBU.

I don't think it is anti semitic to say that what has happened is a war crime. If anything, I think that the enduring guilt of the Holocaust sometimes allows Israel to escape international criticism and condemnation in circumstances where it has clearly acted unreasonably, this being one of those occasions.

I do find it depressing that some people on this thread are apparently seeking to justify Israel's behaviour on the basis that there are other evil regimes or by reference to actions which occurred more than half a century ago (Dresden - for which the UK has rightly expressed remorse); that is not the point at all.

PoppyAmex Fri 16-Nov-12 04:49:24

I find it depressing that people in this thread criticise a country for defending themselves against systematic terrorist attacks to their civilian population.

I'm so willing to bet that these posters haven't lived in similar circumstances and if your schools, your children, your cities were attacked you would be crying for military protection and retaliation.

I agree that is now socially acceptable and politically correct to attack Israel.

tryingtoleave Fri 16-Nov-12 05:11:32

It's not a war crime if you target a military objective and civilians are killed as a result. It is a war crime to target civilian objectives.

LunaLunatic Fri 16-Nov-12 05:43:05

Yes but why are Hamas firing rockets? Their country has disappeared, the food they are allowed to eat, the medication they receive is controlled by the Israeli govt, their trees used for business are ripped down to build more buildings and extend Israel's geographical presence etc. Their right to self governance has been ripped away. 1300 civilians dead in 2008 in Gaza. That included the use of yellow phosphorus which is illegal on an international scale. Oh and Israel is a country. Not a religion. Why can't people enter into a civilised discussion without crying anti semitism? It's nothing to do with anti semitism for the most part (of course there will always be some morons who will use it), it's to do with a government being held accountable for their (sometimes illegal) actions.

I know this will be heated so apologies in advance if people are offended by my view, but it's just the way I see things.

tryingtoleave Fri 16-Nov-12 05:58:03

It doesn't matter how just you think a cause may be, the rules of international law are the same. It is illegal to target civilians.

LadyMetroland Fri 16-Nov-12 06:28:21

If anything, the Palestinians are the ones deliberately targeting rockets at Israeli civilians and thus committing a war crime.

But the Israelis know that huge numbers of civilians will die when they target militants in Gaza, so they too are committing a crime - whether it's a war crime is debatable.

Don't lose sight of the fact there is an election in Israel in the New Year. Polls show the Israeli public like their government to act tough, so this latest violence is really all about Netanyahu getting re-elected.

Cozy9 Fri 16-Nov-12 06:38:09

It will never end.

MoreBeta Fri 16-Nov-12 06:47:40

Both sides have their reasosn for wanting escalate thsi particulat round of violence and both sides are firing rockets.

Incidentally, Isreal is home to many muslim people who live peacefully and happily there. Not many people realise that. This is not a religious or ethnic conflict.

MammaTJ Fri 16-Nov-12 06:50:17

Now Israel are firing back it is suddenly in the news. I have been seeing news for the past few days about Israel being attacked. They are only fighting back, how can that be a war crime?

sashh Fri 16-Nov-12 07:31:09

Lots of shit goes on, but the Palestinians are just as responsible for their own plight.

Yes they should all go back to Palestine.....................er, hang on.

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