to think that so many women have traumatic damage during childbirth, and why can you not have a CS on demand?

[GetOrfMoiLand]

No I know this is probably a contentious point, and financially there would be a hell of a burden, but it seems that a woman's body is not brilliantly well designed for childbirth, and so many women have had terrible vaginal damage caused by birth, you only have to look at the threads on here.

I was only thinking this because SIL went to A&E on christmas day due to severe rectal damage, she was in utter agony and couldn't go to the loo. And one of her friends who gae birth at the same time had terriblt third degree tears also.

Disclaimer - I know bugger all about anything, but childbirth can cause such trauma, there is a perfectly good alternative which would reduce these incidents of damage (yes, I do know that a CS is major abdominal surgery, I have had abdominal surgery myself and although painful, I wouldn't say it was as painful as my poor SIL's injuries, not by a long shot)

[Katey1010]

I just had a CS and believe me, it's no walk in the park. Statistically, I believe outcomes are worse for mothers and babies with CSs.

[madonnawhore]

I haven't had children, so I too know bugger all about anything, but I have to say that I would rather be cut open than bust my vagina and risk prolapse or wetting myself for years to come. Some of the threads on the Childbirth forum are .

ducks and awaits flaming

[Northernlebkuchen]

Severe childbirth injuries are very serious but they only happen to a small number of women. A c-section is a major op for all women who have it. C-sections are a vital tool but the body is designed to give birth actually and mostly does so very well so we need to let it get on with that. Medicalising birth even more is not going to be good for anybody and nobody gets to 'demand' an operation

[scurryfunge]

I suppose it is because you can't anticipate particular damage before or during the birth always. It must be that CS surgery is too much of a risk compared to rectal damage, etc. The cynic also tells me it would be too expensive for the NHS if a surgeon was involved in more births.

[emsyj]

I don't know anyone who has suffered in this way through a vaginal birth so from my perspective YABU.

I had a crash section under GA and would much prefer to try and have a vaginal delivery next time. Friends of mine who have had vaginal births have been up and about more or less immediately (albeit with some pain from stitches if they had them) whereas I took ages to even be able to walk ten minutes to the shops. I would never choose a section nor advise anyone else to do so. It also made breastfeeding much harder as DD was very sleepy and wouldn't suck, plus holding her to feed her was hard as my wound was sore.

[Porcelain]

YABU. Damage like you describe is nowhere near common enough to warrant that. The tissue damage from a section, although cleaner and controlled is more extensive.

[izzybiz]

But you don't hear from all the women who have had perfectly straightforward deliveries do you! They would be boring stories without the horror involved!

I have had 3 children, my 1st at 16 years old, I suffered a small tear with Dc1 that healed perfectly. No tearing or problems with my next two, my vagina is fine!

My last baby was 10lb 10oz too, born in 3 hours, text book delivery!

[ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo]

sections are an operation like any other and should be reserved for when tehy are necessary, like any other surgery. they are a bigger risk to mum and baby than delivering vaginally if all is well leading up to teh event.

[2shoes]

not sure if yabu or not.
but I do wonder if so many babies would be damaged if there were more CS, I know I wish i had had one.

[TattyDevine]

Statistically, a child is less likely to die if born by C-sec, but risk is still very low even with natural birth. But technically its safer for the child.

Statistically, the mother is slightly more likely to die having a CS, however, once again, its still very very very low risk.

Statistics aside, one thing I do find is that people rarely talk of the "risks" of natural birth, but there is plenty of info on the risks of CS. This is probably, rightly, due to issues of informed consent - because CS is sometimes an elective thing, these risks should be known. And because CS is not routinely offered as a "choice" for choice's sake, the risks of vaginal birth are less often discussed.

I would like to see a system where women have more choice to exercise informed consent of whatever their preference happens to be, if they feel strongly, but I'm not sure if its a good thing if CS gets routinely offered as some good candidates for straightforward natural birth would not then get to achieve that if they decided against it. But perhaps that's not our decision to make for them.

I think I'm with you OP, YANBU.

[GetOrfMoiLand]

Hmm.

I don't think the human body is brilliantlt designed for it really, wht with our narrow pelvises and all.

i really don't see a problem with medicalising childbirth tbh. i think there are a lot more people who suffer post partum than is statistically recorded, such as terrible piles after and years of incontinece.

i don't know why I have got a particular axe to grind, I gave birth naturally, didn't tear and it was a walk in the park. But poor SIL has got 2 inch wide hips, and was enoprmous and had a 9lber. Surely in cases where the baby is huge a CS should at least be an option.

[GypsyMoth]

what about babies that are born? is a c section more dangerous for them??

it can't be all about whats best for the mother

theres 2 people to think of here

[humanoctopus]

If you go to a private consultant, in a private hospital, then you can have your c section. (Disclaimer - what I really meant is that you have the opportunity to discuss your concerns and have the doctor reassure you - just in case the Portland sues me ).

[bubbleymummy]

"it seems that a woman's body is not brilliantly well designed for childbirth" It's amazing the human race has survived at all then! [hmmm]

I actually think that medicalising births and unnecessarily interfering has a lot to answer for. CS definitely have their place and have saved lives and we are lucky to have them for when things do go wrong but no, major surgery as an alternative to what could be a normal birth does not make sense.

[ILoveItWhenYouCallMeBoo]

GOML as far as i know, when i baby is measuring very big and the mum considered small, a section is offered.

(my mum is an obstetrics theatre sister)

[Unwind]

there are so many confounding variables - I doubt it would be possible to properly unpick the reasons that a c/s was chosen, and match them with natural births for comparison.

Also, statistics on birth trauma (physical or psychological) don't seem to be collated anywhere easy to find, and if they are being collected, not everyone will be counted.

[TattyDevine]

Its technically safer for the baby, Tiffany, but only slightly. There is no valid argument in this debate for wellbeing of child - technically they are safer coming out through the sunroof, though very slightly more likely to grow up with no mother.

[GetOrfMoiLand]

Tatty has articulated it all much better than I have.

i have never even thought about CSs before, it was just my SIL's suffering which made me think, and a couple of threads on here lately.

Like I said, I know frig all about the subject really.

And the cost would be abhorrent. Mind you, how many CSs are there in somehere like the US weher insurance companies pay for it as opposed to the state? Do you get more of an element of choice or CS on demand there.

[scurryfunge]

I had an emergency CS and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I took me ages to get back to normal, I blame not breastfeeding for very long due to the pain of not being able to sit comfortably whilst doing so, I got a post surgery infection, I couldn't drive for a while.

The only good point (apart from us both surviving of course) is that I didn't end up with a bucket fanny

[spidookly]

Agree with Northern

well said

your poor SIL GetOrf, hope she is OK now.

But just like MN can make you think all men are lazy useless shits despite what you know from real life, it can also magnify and amplify issues like birth injuries because it provides a very welcome place for the women affected to talk about their experiences.

There are no "my elastic fanjo has snapped right back into place and my perineum is tip top" threads, but you do also read enough amazing birth stories to know that a good vaginal birth is an amazing experience.

[Unwind]

x posts with GetOrf, who said it better

[Katey1010]

Tatty, I was under the impression that CS were bad for babies too. In terms of things like their breathing not being stimulated by squeezing and worse BFing outcomes. I would have felt a lot better about the CS if they had told me it was safer for the baby!

In my case it was because she wasn't coming no matter what was tried (4 sodding days) but I still felt guilty about it.

emsyj, I second the BFing issues. Holding her is a nightmare and getting up with her after is agony. I think I endanger my recovery from the surgery by doing things for her which I wouldn't if I had had my appendix out!

[IAmTheCookieMonster]

a woman's body is not brilliantly well designed for childbirth

It is really sad that you think this!

The female body is perfectly designed for childbirth, it is the maternity services and all the intervention that is NOT designed for childbirth!

[hmmSleep]

I've had a cs, and 2 VBACs, the vaginal births were FAR less traumatic and personally my recovery much faster than after my cs. Just my experience though.

[TattyDevine]

I have never given birth naturally, my son came out by crash section and then my daughter by elective, both for medical reasons where we both would have died otherwise (placenta praevia)

This might make me slightly biased as I dont know the "thrill" or "sense of power" women talk about from giving birth and a lot of women might not give that up for the world including some grazes or minor problems afterwards.

I do, however, know quite a lot of women who have suffered quite major damage from giving birth naturally. SIL is one, she recently had an operation more than 13 years after having her final child to fix various problems to do with this, and they actually dislocated her hip in performing this op (god knows!) and she's now having problems with that. At least 3 friends tore from clit to arsehole, one had a subsequent c-sec and the other is having a designer vagina.

Not sure of the actual stats but perhaps we aren't that well designed for it, or perhaps something about modern life means we are giving birth to slightly bigger babies than we otherwise would (if we were working in the fields would they be smaller? Or perhaps foetal positioning would be better than our lifestyle of sitting on sofas and at desks, and positioning would mean better births? Just musing now)

I dont know, there are a lot of ideal scenarios but I wonder if there was a bigger uptake on c-sec birth due to it being an optional extra there might be a decline in appointments for bladder control, nips and tucks, prolapse repairs, and the operations that may or may not follow, hell perhaps they might break even? Hard to say.