Disciplining adopted DC

[crackerjack00]

quick one for you.

DS - 7 years old. Placed for approaching a year.

Habit of telling fantastical tales, not taking responsibility for actions, deflecting blame, and latching on to mitigating circumstances, ie if DH and I say 'I know it's difficult for you because of x, y and z, next time he's in trouble, he'll say I did it because of x, y and z). Latest 'x y and z' is the multiple moves he's had.

A while ago, teacher reports he's been pushing and shoving at school to the extent 3 children had complained. 2 days later, he admits he shoved someone again. He gets very upset when talking to him about it, but crucially not upset for his actions he's upset that he's in trouble, says anything to deflect blame (so and so was doing it too. I didn't know you shouldn't (despite conversations taking place 48 hrs earlier between us where he's told he shouldn't), and the latest excuse, it's because he's had so many homes.

Got to the point where teacher was coming to talk to us 2-3 evenings a week to report further misbehaviour. So last Friday, after the latest, we said if teacher 'had a word' once this week, he'd miss out on a party he's been looking forward to.

Tonight, the dreaded 'can I have a word?' He's drawn on a fellow classmates t-shirt all over in pen. Which would be fine but 2 weeks ago he drew on a onesie. We spoke about it at the time in an attempt to understand why. He wanted a police badge on his onesie. We said that a better thing to do would have been to put one on paper, cut it out, stick it, blah blah. We also reinforced that clothes were not to be drawn on (nor skin, just paper).

His excuse to the teacher? I didn't know I shouldn't do it because I've lived in so many houses. (DH and I have recently shown empathy with his multiple moves). He got incredibly upset for 5 mins at the thought of missing his party. Now, he doesn't appear to give a toss.

I admit I'm getting frustrated and am running out of ideas how to discipline him (and offer empathy of any description when it immediately gets used as an excuse... (He really 'has form for this))

How would you handle this/what ways of discipline would you use? (please no one say time in. It's all any of the experts suggest and it does fuck all)

Sorry... I thought that would be shorter!!!

[Chev123]

Have you read big steps for little people by celia foster? I'm not (yet) in your situation but I read it as part of my prep and it seemed to have some more realistic solutions to behaviour issues. Sometimes I felt what social workers said was too much the ideal. There were some suggestions for tackling behaviours which made me think and seemed to make sense. I think I'll be going back to it when my little one is older! Xx

[UnidentifiedSighingObject]

I second that the school may need to up their game here - do you feel they understand that (among other emotional complexities) your DS is likely to be emotionally far younger than his actual age, as well as very likely to struggle with knowing how to establish relationships with peers? Do you think it might help him if he may had some 1:1 support alongside to give him prompts at key moments about behaviour and social "norms"? I know he sounds intellectually smart based on his infuriating reasoning (!) but that doesn't mean he knows how to make good decisions, or build relationships. The pushing and shoving, and the drawing on the shirt, both sound to me like a child trying to break into a social group and not knowing how to do it.

In terms of your question about discipline within the household, I guess I would try and bear in mind the very young child inside. It's absolutely right that there are consequences for breaking the boundaries you've set, but perhaps the consequences are still things you can do together? So, if he's drawn on the wall, the two of you clean it off and you let him know he'll need to stick by you that day/afternoon etc, because it doesn't feel like he can make good choices on his own at the moment. Maybe your empathy could be "I'm sorry you weren't able to make a good decision about drawing on X's shirt. You knew it was wrong, and that there would be consequences. It's sad that we can't do ABC now, because we need to do the consequence activity together." So you acknowledge the sadness/anger or whatever, without giving a future "excuse", if you see what I mean? That feels a bit waffly, sorry!

I have absolutely no advice about how to have more patience - definitely one of my big weaknesses

[fasparent]

He probable right too many moves, dressed too impress , be accepted , get's the attention , trouble it can become bit of a habit will like the position of class clown, quite right knows it's wrong , as said have too be patient reinforce his permanency wellbeing and self esteem.
AS YOU DISCRIBE he knows he is wrong will and can not explain why except reasons he has done it prior too placement. Will get better with time .
Young man age 7 would Knick more out of the shop than I had bought , reason., "what I was taught, was a real artist. Same at school always had a witness was very convincing , took a few years too revert too near normality, is real funny when we all look back on things , is part
of his past and memory's he can laugh at too now.

[MollieCoddler]

In general if the incident happened at school it is the schools job to discipline him, not yours. Piling on the punishments isn't going to help. I'd push them to come up with better in school strategies for him.

[paxtecum]

Stop threatening to take activities away like the party which he had been looking forward to and would be mixing with other children.
It was good that he had been invited but now he can't go.

Can he have rewards for being good instead of punishments for being not so good?

Maybe he has shrugged it off and added it to all the other disappointments he must have had in his life.

I do remember being told off at school when I was 6 and I was sent to the HT the next day for doing it again. I was being deliberately naughty but I had forgotten that I shouldn't do it.

[crackerjack00]

Thanks all, food for thought.

The school and his teacher in particular are brilliant with him. Very few concerns there up until this all started about a month ago.

Reward for being good? I'm sure this sounds awful but I struggle to think of when he'd get them to be honest at the moment.

[freddiethegreat]

Well, there have been three days this week when the teacher didn't need to 'have a word' for starters. I know you feel you can't reward that now, because of today, but if he responds to positive feedback, each of those could have had a little reward at the time.

Alvie Kohn/Bryan Post may be of interest for a different approach altogether though.

[YouAreMyRain]

I second Freddie's recommendation of Bryan Post, I've just started a thread about his book the great behaviour breakdown. On his website there's loads of stuff including a free book about ending lying etc

[BertieBotts]

I do not have adopted DC but re rewards for being good - can you set up a "token" system. Set out say 5 or 6 expected behaviours throughout the day, make them fairly wide reaching but addressing issues you have. The expectations need to be reasonable for his development and personality, but you're not aiming for/expecting him to "win" all of them every day, not at first.

e.g. ours are:

Timeliness - not making us late, getting ready in plenty of time, not kicking off when it's time to leave, listening to reminders about you have X minutes left, not getting distracted/coming back when it's pointed out you've got distracted.

Respect for people - using nice/kind voice/words to ask for stuff, not being rude or stroppy or attitudey, no name calling, no violence, acknowledging people/requests (I don't expect immediate compliance).

Respect for privacy - doors closed when using the bathroom/dressing, don't barge into bedrooms, knock first, no inappropriate touching, stop when somebody asks you to when playing physical games, etc.

Being helpful - completing a list of (simple) chores, not obstructing people trying to get on with stuff.

Eating nicely - sit nicely at table (not perfectly, but bum on seat facing the table, not getting up randomly etc)

Keeping clean - self care stuff (shower/bath when appropriate - we have a board for which days this happens), teeth twice a day, hands/face washed when appropriate, not leaving massive messes in wake - obv normal kid stuff is fine, and not expected to be done without reminders.

You could add/swap out stuff like:

Respect for property
Respect for resources (not wasting stuff)
Respect for learning (doing homework, not disrupting any lessons)
Controlling temper (dealing with anger constructively)
Telling the truth

Don't make the list of expected behaviours too long - 5 or 6 seems about right. Don't give him the list of "This is what not to do!" specifically but talk about what you do want to see - what's why all of the titles/categories are positive morals/behaviours/etc. Don't particularly dangle/threaten loss of tokens throughout the day, but use the words. "That really helped us to be on time, well done!" "That isn't very respectful. Would you like to start again and try again?" "X, you are not respecting my privacy right now" "Thank you, that's really helpful." (etc). So you can pass comment on behaviours but don't go "Right that's it you've lost your token!" or "Do you want to get a token or not??" At the end of the day, run down the list and allocate which ones he achieved. Tell him which ones he's getting. "You got three tokens today, for being helpful, respecting privacy and being on time." Don't comment on the others, but if he asks, then you can say "Well you lost the respect token because your teacher told us that you shouted at her today." You can talk about it, but follow his lead - don't launch into a lecture especially just before bed. The best part about the token system - you can remind him - is that he always has another chance the next day. He always gets to start again and try again.

Then you can also add "instant" tokens for particular flashpoint behaviours or achievements you want to work on (we have one for trying something new and one if all chores are completed before a certain time) or just to reward something immediately if you see that he's done something well, something hard or something big for him.

Obv you still have to use ongoing behaviour management such as if he is trying to hurt you/himself then you must prevent that. And for bigger transgressions you might need to do a consequence or some problem solving or whatever constructive approach is helpful. But this does allow you to ignore some of the more minor stuff while still addressing it by encouraging the opposite.

Make the tokens actual physical things - plastic coins/chips or make some out of card and sticky backed plastic so he can have them and hold them and be given them immediately. Let him save them up over time or spend them immediately on rewards - something specific (screen time in our house) to a range of stuff (from monetary "things" to experiences, privileges or other treats). Consider having some kind of bonus if he amasses eight or ten at once. I'd recommend having one of the rewards be something he can do for bedtime so he has a chance to spend them immediately on receiving the bulk of them for the day.

It's nice, because it focuses in on the behaviour you want and clarifies that, (both for you and him), forces you to pick out the most important issues, and allows you to focus on what he has done right. You should be able to award at least one or two even on a bad day, if you can't, or you're regularly getting v low numbers (4-7 should be typical taking into account all-day and instant together) then it might be that the expectations are too high and you need to take them down. Set him up for success - you can increase expectations later.

[paxtecum]

I missed a vital word out of my last sentence on the earlier posting.

'I was NOT being deliberately naughty, but I had forgotten that I shouldn't do it'.

I think not letting him go to the party that he was looking forward to is a bit harsh to be honest.

Speaking as a mother and grandmother to some determined and often difficult children, it is a trap I've fallen into and later regretted.

[UnderTheNameOfSanders]

I don't have anything specific to add, but I do have a general one.
My ADD1 was placed age 8, now 15.

We have always talked to her that she mustn't let her bad start in life screw up her future too. Yes, her first 6 years were pretty rubbish and she experienced things that no child should. But now she has stability, and support, and opportunities, and it is up to her to grab them with both hands.

Lots of moves may make him insecure, but there is never an acceptable excuse for hitting other children, or ruining property. These are hard lines that shouldn't be crossed. School need to give him a 'safe place' if he feels over stressed, but he does need to move away from trouble.

Oh, and I agree, catch him being good. Get the school to do it too. And lots of praise for any good choices made. We talk a lot about good choices, puts the responsibility back on the child.

[Haffdonga]

Hi Crackerjack (Disclaimer: I am not an adopter but I do have some experience working with adopted and other dcs, some of whom have challenging behaviour. I understand what works for some is totally wrong for others.)You have had some fantastic advice here and you sound as if you yourself are actually doing far better than you are giving yourself credit for.

A couple of thoughts - about your ds's 'go to' excuse that 'it's because I've had so many homes'. You're probably right in identifying that he's using this as a ready made 'get out of jail free' card at the moment. But looking at it another way, deep down it is probably true. The chances are, he wouldn't have been able to articulate this or even have any idea of what's making him do 'naughty' things. (How many of us can actually explain logically why we've done things we shouldn't have?) But you have given him a handle and words that's allowing him to start acknowledging and expressing how his past lack of stability may make it more difficult for him to regulate his behaviour. That's actually really positive as a way in, If he's emotionally able, you could go on to talk to him about how even if he finds some things more difficult perhaps due to his background, there are still golden rules that apply (such as never hurting people) and that although you acknowledge his background as an important part of him, you wont accept it as an excuse for bad behaviour.

• about the whole rewards and consequences issue. bertie's given you some great advice. If your current system isn't working, I'd suggest you reduce the time frame you're rewarding for. You asked ds not to be in trouble for a week - a week is a very long time! (If you asked me to promise not to indulge in my bad habits for a week -being disorganised, slacking on the ironing, an extra glass of wine, I'd find a week hard to manage). A day might be too long to ask at this stage before rewarding for wanted behaviours. Some dcs need to go as short as 5 minute slots. It has to be a short enough time frame to feel easily manageable for DS (school playtime?). Your use of 'teacher having a word' as a yardstick for rewards or consequence is also a tricky one because DS only indirectly has any control over whether or not the teacher catches you after school. There may be days when his behaviour is far worse, but the teacher has a meeting so doesn't stop you and others when she has a spare minute and decides to collar you. It also makes you talking to the teacher an entirely negative thing for DS. Could you set up a system (book or chat) where the teacher reports every day on positives too?
  

Try to find a measure of a single aspect of ds's behaviour that's entirely under his control (such as keeping his hands and legs to himself) for a first focus and then just concentrate on that one very clear thing for while, rewarding for each session achieved. The more explicit you can be, the better as the generic 'be good' is a very difficult concept to get to grips with- especially for dcs who may have deep-seated beliefs that they are not good.

Finally, I love the advice about describing the positive consequences of the good behaviour rather than just heaping on general praise. Some adopted dcs find praise very difficult to deal with, especially the general ' You're such a good boy. You're fantastic.' etc. Some dcs, espcially if they are insecure, might believe you're wrong about them being great and worry about what would happen if you actually discovered the real not-so-great dc underneath. It might be just meaningless to them or it might create a need for them to test or disprove you. So objectively describing the behaviour and it's consequences is much easier to deal with. ( Oh great! Because you're tidying up your toys so well, we'll have time for an extra story. )

Finally finally - when I was teaching challenging dcs many years ago I was given advice to praise 3 times for every instruction I gave. ( Line up everyone. Well done Sam, you are standing still. Excellent Mustafa you are keeping your hands to yourself today, now we'll have longer for playtime etc etc ). To start it felt ridiculous praising behaviour that should have gone without saying but it made me feel a hell of a lot better about them and about myself. The 'atmosphere' became more positive IYSWIM. Could that approach be worth a try for your ds?

Good luck

[crackerjack00]

Hello

Thanks so much for the time consuming and detailed replies.

He's at his party as I type. There were no 'can I have a words' tonight so we made a fuss of him and said he'd earned it back; we're going to try to be more positive in our parenting him

I really appreciate all your advice.

[Domino51]

Hi, My children are not adopted but when it comes to discipline whether or not a child is adopted really doesn't matter, the rules are still the same:

1. Be consistant.
   
2. Be a united front, you and your husband must operate in the same way. If a child see's a weakness in your armour they will launch a heat seeking missile through it!
   
3. Make the punishment fit the crime - The punishment needs to be associated with the crime. ie: Drawing on the clothing, remove all drawing implements for a time period.
   
4. Don't be unrealistic with the time periods, two hours can sometimes be enough, it doesn't have to be days on end. But it must also be immediate, say if the party had been in a couple of days then by the time the party came around he would have moved on and would not understand why he now couldn't go.
   
5. The opportunity to earn back is great so long as you don't make it too easy.
   
6. Sign up to emails from Empowering Parents - they will take you from where you are at 7yrs all the way through teenage years and beyond.
   
   I'm not a perfect parent and I have broken every one of the above, sometimes all before breakfast! You just have to take one step at a time, one behaviour at a time.

[StaceyAndTracey]

No domino , you are completely wrong

It DOES matter that the child is adopted

He's 7 and has been placed for a year . Have you any idea what he has been through ? It's not an excuse , but it might be a reason .

[Domino51]

As an adopted child yes I do. And unless you want to raise a child with an adoption label around their neck, you have to move forward, the child is not an adopted child, he is their son, period.

[StaceyAndTracey]

Were you adopted at six years of age , domino ?

I think you are putting your own feelings about being " an adopted child " onto this child and the Ops family.

Your comments about raising a child " with an adoption label around their neck " are rather pejorative and unhelpful . You imply that being adopted is something shameful .

If the OP didn't think that his past was relevant , I'm guessing she wouldn't be posting in adoption .

And if she wasn't interested in " moving forward " , she wouldnt be asking for advice , would she ?

[Domino51]

Moving forward means stop using the adoption as an excuse. The OP wasn't doing this you were.

[StaceyAndTracey]

" He's 7 and has been placed for a year . Have you any idea what he has been through ? It's not an excuse , but it might be a reason ."

Which bit of that says it's an excuse ?

And you didn't answer my question about what age you were adopted at ?

Can I ask you how old your adopted children are ?

[UnidentifiedSighingObject]

Have to go with Stacey here - depending entirely on the individual child, the recent adoption and the child's early experiences absolutely make a difference about what sort of discipline approaches will help build a bond and attachment, and what approaches might increase a sense of shame and isolation or rejection. There's no need for it to be a "label", because it's simply one facet of the family dynamic, but it's a vital one and can't be brushed aside.

My adopted LO, for example, cannot use reward systems at all. They have a rigid belief that they will fail or be denied something, because that is their fundamental experience early on. So a system of behaviour based around "earning" or "trying" to get something good is utterly pointless - it either makes LO incredibly anxious, or they sabotage it almost immediately to get the tension over with. Everything works much better if I stick to lots of praising the good, and trying to model what "good" looks like.

Having said that, there's nothing to say *Domino's" six points can't ever work - it depends on the child, the relationships, and the way each option is chosen with empathy.

[Kewcumber]

Domino - the background of children placed for adoption these days is probably significantly different to those when you were adopted and certainly in a child adopted as old as 6 there would be significant issues such as attachment and separation which you just can't just ignore.

It's not that I actually disagree with your list - those are all good things to bear in mind. And I personally like to think of the behaviour management which is recommended for adopted children as "best practice" rather than "adoptive parenting".

But to reassure you, when most of us say that adoption does make a difference, it doesn't mean that we constantly say to our children "you are adopted so I'm doing things this way". Adoption is rarely mentioned in our house. In fact I don't even consciously think that what I'm doing is "adoptive" parenting.

However it would be foolish to ignore the reality that our childrens behaviours are often informed by their experiences and factoring this into how you manage their behaviour makes total sense.

[Kewcumber]

Sorry Crakerjack I didn't mean to ignore you and focus one one specific comment to your detriment!

I have been that parent "could I have a word* and the walk of shame.

I fought for nearly two years to get the school to take his issues seriously but finally he has been seen by an EP who is assessing him for a variety of things and is providing CBT for his anxiety issues which often cause his behaviour issues.

A bit as you have discovered the only thing which really works for DS is relentlessly positive parenting. Find something to praise - I have praised DS for just trying at times. And he does try very hard to get it right. Rewards and punishments just don;t work (as someone else also said up thread). I think he has internalised that good things happen to people who dont deserve them and bad things happen no matter how well you behave or how hard you try. If you have a child who has internalised this it can be hard but what does work with DS is that he is very very keen to please me and I try to make sure that what pleases me isn't too difficult - which goes back to praising the effort.

I think sometimes its worth just saying how much you enjoy just being with them, eatching them play, watching them play sport etc. Not just praising them becuase they've won or done something worthy but just because you enjoy them. It can really take the pressure of the outcome if the person you are trying to please says "I really enjoy watching you have a good time" or "I love to watch you play football"

[Domino51]

I know exactly why I behaved the way I did as a child, I know exactly why I behaved the way I did as a teeneger, and I know exactly why I behave the way I do as an adult. Do not even begin to kid yourself that because one child was older than another things such as separation anxiety don't exist, or that the reasons for todays adoptions differ from yesterday. A lot of the reasons are still the same, the difference is you know about them, and yesterday's parents didn't.

My parents were not consistent, they did not sing from the same song sheet, they did not treat me and my syblings equally, they were not realistic with time periods and there was no oportunity to earn anything back.

These were not my birth parents, they were my adoptive parents! My 'mother' was a fully trained nursery nurse but that didn't stop her. My self confidence and my self esteem were completely desimated by her. Punishments were disproportionate and public humiliation were an almost daily occurance. To this day as a grown woman with a long loving marriage and three children, I still have to sleep in total darkness because my childhood taught me that is the only time you are safe, at night in the dark!

I still have serious abandonment issues. I see things in black and white, there is no grey for me. I can't cope with rejection, confrontation or betrayal.

Children who are adopted will carry the scars for life, how big they are is down to you. But do you know what, good things do happen to bad people and sometimes no matter how hard some people try bad things still happen, it's called real life. Hiding your child from this is not helping them. But it's good to know that you think NOT being consistent, NOT having both parents sing from the same song sheet, NOT having what ever mode of consequence that works for your child to be in proportion to the crime etc etc, is the way to go!

Some of you are so busy listening to yourselves that it hasn't even occured to you that I look at your situations from a completely different perspective - your childs! And because I didn't pat you on the back and tell you what you wanted to hear, you attacked me.

Thank you for re-affirming my already deep rooted belief helped in no small part by the adoptive mother that thought she was wonderful that women are not to be trusted. Ever!