My GC DD wants to do presentation about Self ID. Help!

[hopingforhappiness]

She's 15. She goes to a highly academic, all girls school.
I am GC. I have given her lots of factual info but tried to let her make her own mind up. (It's been hard not to just give my opinion).
She understands the difference between gender and sex.
She's been reading Woman's Place website, a lot.
Her teacher thinks it will be very interesting. No sign of her being censored on the subject. Which I am pleased about.
She must provide an anecdote.
I can only tell her about my friend Gina, who went through full reassignment a long time ago.
She wants to talk about self ID and potential issues with that.
It's been a while since I read anything on this ( obviously I will try and catch up with the latest developments).
Can anyone assist with what way we should go with this.
I want it to be a reasoned, well thought-out presentation.
She wants a PowerPoint display of "Posie's lightshow" as her backdrop.
Help!

[Iused2BanOptimist]

There's been a thread in the last few days about school girls being confronted with a naked man in the changing room when they went to school swimming session. In the USA. They complained but were told he was a woman. No problem.
Something like that might resonate with her peer age group.

[Iused2BanOptimist]

Here it is.

School girls gaslit en masse after encountering 'naked man'... www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3489313-School-girls-gaslit-en-masse-after-encountering-naked-man-in-swimming-pool-shower

[Qcng]

ManFriday swim / Hampstead ponds protests are anecdotal, and provide a lighthearted insight as to what happens when organisations adopt self-ID policies.

[Qcng]

Target stores saw sexual crimes triple as soon as they introduced self-ID policy to their changing rooms (ie self declared "women's" and self declared "men's" rooms)
womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

[Qcng]

^the crimes obviously all took place in the women's changing room against women, with male perpetrators.

[hopingforhappiness]

Thank you all!
She's considering a sports angle.
She's witnessed a transwoman competing in her one of her own sports, the imbalance was really demotivating. She also swims competitively, so the Man Friday reference is great. I was going to suggest she references Rachel McKinnon.
I want it to show some balance though; this is where I am struggling. What do I suggest? I don't really see the other side easily on this...

[LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD]

Women in medical situations?
Choice being taken away from women with regards to sharing intimate spaces with a male person - so even if you don’t care, your mum or granny might very well. Why impose this on everyone?
Who is pushing the agenda? Is it really Big Pharma with an axe to grind?
Why the threats and abuse - usually the actions of bullies and tyrants. What have they got to hide?
Whose feelings and wants trump the others?

[UnderMajorDomoMinor]

Well would the balence be people like Miranda yardley and what they have gone though being devalued and chipped away by this ‘I says, I am’ approach to identity?

[jeaux90]

Sports is a good place to start, it's the cutting edge of the debate for sure. I saw Nicola Williams do a great presentation on this so FairPlay for women might have some good material on their website. She could run the video to start? I saw their most recent one "sex self ID" on their site then she could do a deck on some of the other issues? Be good to get some balance and talk about dysphoria, but also about the lack of research into it and desisted kids.

[Funkyfunkybeat12]

What about Andraya Yearwood? Around same age as her- high school sport's competitor. Might enlighten a few of them to focus on the fairness angle. I think keep it quite neutral lest she gets accused of transphobia. But maybe if you highlight what the average track times are for boys and for girls and then ask whether it is fair that a feeling in your head (which has no impact on your body and strength) gets to determine which category you compete in. And if so, why can't we all just choose the category, regardless of what gender we think we are? And if we could, obviously all the men who couldn't beat the other men would choose to go into the women's category.

[nauticant]

Conflict of rights is a good aspect to explore. As you say OP your DD is interested in sport. This is brimming with examples.

A thought-provoking story to show conflict at an extreme level is what happens when a woman has asked for a woman to conduct an intimate examination and a transwoman who is obviously male arrives and expects to carry it out. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3125889-Woman-requests-a-female-nurse-She-gets-a-transwoman-instead

There's also the dimension of women whose religion has limitations on mixing with men. Do their rights get overruled because of men's feelings?

One way to present this would be for your DD to present examples of the conflicts of rights and to leave the audience with the question "whose rights should prevail" for each example.

[hopingforhappiness]

Funky, I really like that perspective.
I'm concerned that she might be accused of transphobia. There are some pupils who are moving towards becoming transgender and I am keen to avoid any ill feeling.
Her school produces strong, confident young women, I see this issue as an important one for them all to understand.

[Danaquestionseverything]

Good on your daughter. I’m glad the school isn’t policing her presentation. I’m sure she’ll do very well.

[nauticant]

I meant to add. She might be able to present a more persuasive case if she leads to a conclusion of "there are many difficult aspects, there are conflicts of rights, which means that if the law is going to be changed in such a fundamental way, there needs to be an open discussion that gives a voice to all the people who might be affected".

With this in mind, a slight detour to discuss the intimidation involved in closing down women's meetings to discuss a proposed fundamental change in the law of the UK could demonstrate that this isn't about nice people being stopped being themselves by evil people.

Importantly though, do you think there's a risk that if your DD talks about things that go against the orthodoxy she might end up as a pariah in any friendship groups?

[R0wantrees]

Her school produces strong, confident young women

Gender Critical Feminists of South West Wales thread:

"So why have women been putting t shirts on statues up and down the country? And why with the dictionary definition of woman?
Women have fought long and hard for the right to be accepted fully as members of society:
•It is just over a 100 years since some women won the right to vote on equal terms with men.
•43 years ago discrimination against women in the workplace was made illegal
•Women’s entitlement to equal pay was not enshrined in law until 1970
•During the 1970’s the first women’s refuges and rape crisis centres were opened
•Not until 1990 were married women taxed independently from their husbands
•Rape in Marriage became a crime in 1994
All of these and other many changes have been brought about by the activism of women speaking out, protesting, fighting for their rights to be treated as equal citizens.
And yet we still live in a sexist society:
•#metoo reminded us that sexual harassment and sexual violence are still daily occurrences for women and girls
• pay gap reporting reminded us that men are still paid more than women
•Austerity has hit women harder than men
Women have spent 150 years fighting for their rights, some of the issues women have fought for we no longer notice & are taken for granted. The Women’s Sanitary Association was formed in the 1850s to campaign for women’s public toilets, to enable women to go out & about
Early women’s public toilets were vandalised and destroyed by men who did not want women to have that right. Women are still campaigning for adequate toilet provision on construction sites.
If we dilute the definition of woman, we will not be able to see this sexism, we will not be able to record it or nor will we be able to record how we progress in eradicating sexism.
Today we dress statues & sculptures of women in the definition of woman to remind everyone:-
we cannot take women’s rights for granted & we still have a long way to go in creating a world which is safe and supportive for women and girls.

Today we Stand Up for Women & Girls"

//threadreaderapp.com/thread/1089917272154615808.html

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3492065-ReSisters-standing-up-for-adult-human-females-Thread-title-edited-by-MNHQ

[Etino]

I would discourage my dcs from doing this.
Sorry, I’ll stand up, I’ve got less to lose.

[Funkyfunkybeat12]

Actually, reading some of the other posts and thinking about it, do encourage her to approach it with caution. I think it has to be done in a very neutral way in terms of setting out arguments both for and against and maybe concluding that both sides should be heard. There are loads of people who see this as akin to holocaust-denial and it would be awful if she got into trouble about it. Maybe run the whole presentation by the teacher beforehand. I think the sport angle would still work, but maybe she could propose a separate trans category or something.

[spongedog]

Personally i think your DD should go ahead. Surely this ongoing threat to Womens Rights can only be comprehensively won once women and girls from all ages and nationalities, religions etc take part. I think at the moment young women in particular do not see the absolute threat to their rights that older women see.

She could comment on the differences in men (and women) who gender reassign vs self ID. That would help balance the presentation as it would show that clearly she is not transphobic.

You mention anecdotes? I only know one person who has gender reassigned. He is now a transwoman. She does the same job as before and as far as I know as a customer her company has been very supportive. The difference here is that she continues to do a professional job regardless of sex or gender. She has not tried to change or damage someone else's rights (be they sex rights or religious beliefs). She is respectful towards others. Whereas many who self-id then choose to effectively harm others. Think of the violence shown towards women who protest and the (disgraceful) competing with such unfair advantage in sport.

One final point to consider: www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html . The only individuals asking for these unisex spaces are men/transwomen.

[hopingforhappiness]

I was thinking of talking to her teacher.
My initial reaction was to try and talk her out of it. BUT isn't that part of the reason why we have the situation we have? Woman being nice, keeping quiet, not rocking the boat.
Younger women especially need to understand this issue in full.
I need to think about this some more.
I will give her a list of all your suggestions and links anyway. Rather proud of her.

[KataraJean]

Yes, my DD is wanting to write her dissertation on this next year. I think they are taught to be balanced, at least it seems to me. I am not planning to talk her out of it, I think it is up to her. My job is to sit on my hands and let her do her own research and writing and not interfere. That said, I was reading the amazing thread about the student in Cambridge last night (I forget her name, I am sorry, she has been talking to people on Saturdays) and I am minded to send her that to read. Very thoughtful posts.

[hopingforhappiness]

Katana, I'm not familiar with the Cambridge one. Can you give any further info?
I won't be writing it for her, but I want to be able to guide her effectively.

[nauticant]

It's this one. If you daughter has an interest in this area she might find it very interesting.

It went under the radar for a while, but now people are reading it and everyone is very impressed.

[feministfairy]

This wonderful young woman:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3491136-amazing-woman-carries-out-one-woman-protest-against-women-s-march-menstruators

[nauticant]

Just to clarify, both threads relate to the same young woman. The first is her personal journey and the second is people learning about what she is doing.