Prostitution; help me argue on Facebook

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm arguing with a friend on FB about prostitution. She is the most libfem, choosy choice, libertarian person I know. Currently at college so every second post is about gender neutral bathrooms and the like. I almost never engage.

But her argument is that most prostitution is hidden and therefore we can't know that these workers aren't happy, healthy, free and consenting. I've given her the PTSD stats and the violence and rape stats. But she is insisting that these invisible women are all loving it.

Any stats on home-based, self-employed workers? Also, I know that people here have said that workers' organisations are frequently dominated by pimps. Where's the proof of that. And, former workers who are radfem/anti-sex work and have written pieces about it?

Sorry to use your labour

[GuardianLions]

I don't have time to look at it now but this support forum for women in prostitution www.saafe.info/main/index.php has threads sometimes that shows the darker side

[GuardianLions]

Maybe look at these exited women www.spaceintl.org/

[VestalVirgin]

Well, in Germany, prostitution is not hidden, because it is legal.

The self-employed, home-based "sex workers" mostly quit becaues it is not profitable with flatrate brothels next door.

I obviously don't have any numbers for the "hidden prostitution", but you could google German stats.

Here's a blog by an ex-prostitute:

rebeccamott.net/

She doesn't think "sex worker" is appropriate, as far as I remember. It's been some time since I read that blog.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Thanks! Very useful.

[TheQuestingVole]

If most prostituted women are happy, healthy, free and consenting, why do so many enter prostitution before adulthood (when you can't consent to it imo), and why have such a huge proportion of them had experiences that are generally considered markers of vulnerability, e.g. have been homeless, experienced childhood sexual abuse and/or left the family home at an age well before their peers generally do?

[getoffthesofa]

Suggest she has a look at this site (or indeed actual Punternet type sites). the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/ - heart breaking, the women don't sound so happy in their work.

[LineysRun]

Or you could just tell her to fuck off

[VestalVirgin]

heart breaking, the women don't sound so happy in their work

Though of course the punters complain if they don't smile enough.

[VestalVirgin]

Oh, I forgot: How can even a hundred happy prostitutes justify the suffering of one?

How does this friend justify the effect prostitution has on society in general? The fact that men see nothing wrong with treating all women as buyable commodities?

Why should we approve of prostitution because of those allegedly happy prostitutes when it has such an effect on society? And it does. The punternet site shows that quite clearly.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

She is now saying Johns are decent people and women sexually assault men loads too, dontcha know.

I've asked if she believes in fairies and told her that her brand of liberal feminism is doing the patriarchy's job. I may have lost the intellectual high ground.

[LineysRun]

MrsT, I refer to my previous post of 21.41

[GuardianLions]

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Lineys yours would have been more succinct!

[LineysRun]

MrsT, tbh I want you to go mad at her so that I can hold you down, screaming leave it, MrsTerryPratchett, she ain't fucking worth it

But then again, I've had a few.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Very Eastenders Lineys. I think she may be backing away slowly now.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I've asked if she believes in fairies and told her that her brand of liberal feminism is doing the patriarchy's job. I may have lost the intellectual high ground

Probably- although personally if you were arguing with me it isn't the reference to fairies which would irritate but the "it's the patriarchy, doncha know" line. However I agree with the party line, as it were on this issue.

This site has some excellent arguments on the anti- prostitution side.
You can copy and paste them ( just make sure you copy the ones on the right hand side) I agree with all of them. Several of them accord with my view that this is not actually or only a feminist issue- treating prostitution as acceptable or normal brutalises and damages society as a whole.

Top 10 Pros and Cons - Legal Prostitution - ProCon.org
prostitution.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000115

[MrsTerryPratchett]

She dropped 'the patriarchy' first Lass so I was fighting fire with fire.

[Datun]

Nothing much to add except it never ceases to amaze me how women can think prostitution is enjoyable or even acceptable.

Surely real life experience must tell you that lying on your back being penetrated by a stream of grubby strangers is something to be endured through gritted teeth at best and dreaded at worst.

These women can have no imagination.

[Datun]

*by these women, obviously I don't mean the prostitutes themselves.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

She dropped 'the patriarchy' first Lass so I was fighting fire with fire Ok fairynuff.

I agree re the lack of imagination Datun. Especially given the counter argument we often see that prostitution is better than [insert whatever perfectly ordinary and legitimate job which many of us have done or do but which apparently can be imagined as being much worse than being a prostitute]

[TitaniasCloset]

All these silly bitches who think women get into prostitution because they just really love sex, they are worse than the men.

[Atenco]

If prostitution is so enjoyable, etc. etc. why are so many girls being kidnapped and tricked into it?

Here in Mexico, women are even exported to the USA
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/05/tenancingo-mexico-sex-slave-trade-america

[Datun]

I've never understood it. The argument disappears up its own arse so quickly. Stats are deployed, interviews, ethical/moral arguments, The issue of empowerment, the lack of choice versus the pro-choice viewpoint.

I can understand men promoting this to build an argument, but women?

Most women wouldn't even have to think about it. Their answer to the question do you think prostitution is beneficial to women would surely just produce a 'dur!'

[TheDowagerCuntess]

I can't take any prostitution-supporting woman seriously, who isn't (or hasn't been) a prostitute herself.

If it's such a happy clappy (no pun intended) career, why isn't she doing it herself?

Why are there very few (any?) well-adjusted, educated, sorted woman from loving family backgrounds, with no mental health issues, working as prostitutes?

[GuardianLions]

I think it is the appropriation of feminist positions and arguments out of context that brings this confusion.
Eg- a) female sexuality has been demonised and used to oppress us we need to be free to explore our own sexuality -
Has been re-formed into - 'prostitutes have been demonised and they need to be free to sell their own bodies without stigma'.
b) Women need to fight back against objectification by men and reclaim their own agency in their lives
Has become- 'don't take away the agency of sex workers to make their own decisions'.
c) I am pro-choice - a woman must always be the one to make a decision about abortions - her body, her choice!
Has become 'a woman has the right to choose to sell her body - her body, her choice!'

It has all been extremely calculating and effective, so that's why you get even women spouting this counter-intuitive sex industry propaganda.