Has there ever been a society that wasn't sexist?

[Scarletohello]

Just pondering really, thinking about all the different countries throughout the world at different points in history and find it incredible that there doesn't seem ever to have been a country/society that wasn't sexist. Obviously it takes different forms in different cultures but with the huge diversity that exists around the world re food, dress, language, religion etc that there has NEVER been a society that wasn't sexist.

Anyone know of one, or any thoughts about what this tells us about how society has been organised throughout the world/time..?

[TheWanderingUterus]

That the demands of maternity/rearing infants and the high chance of dying young because of it, have allowed the relatively unhampered men to gain and retain power.

That once power had been gained, the desire to ensure that it was passed down to their direct descendants has led to increased limits on women to ensure this.

I haven't come across any societies that diverge hugely, although I have read of some smaller communities that have taken a matrilineal approach. They have tended to be quite isolated IIRC and have not been the subject of much study.

[PumpkinGordino]

someone on here (buffy? apologies if i misattribute and/or misquote) pointed out that in terms of discovering isolated communities it is highly likely that the observations of those communities' structures were tainted by the act of observation by westerners

so if a group of white male western "explorers" encounters an isolated community, and because of their socialisation they approach elder men first, their assumption that those men are the most senior members of the group actually confers that seniority in itself and alters the dynamics of the community irrevocably. so the evidence is already flawed

i don't know much about historical societies and evidence there, but again my impression is that increasingly the assumptions made in the past are being re-evaluated in some areas. so we have to accept that our interpretations of historical and cultural evidence are heavily biased by our own patriarchal set-up

[messyisthenewtidy]

To back up what Pumpkin said, some of the Native American societies gave women a much higher status than the European ones at the time. Women were the drivers of agriculture (IIRC the Corn Mother is an important Cherokee deity) and in some cases enjoyed some political power.

But when the Euros came they did exactly as Pumpkin said and went straight to the males of the tribes for business. Some euro documents even note (with disdain of course!) the power "allowed" to NA women by their men. The increase in warfare between tribes was facilitated by the weapons supplied by the whites and interestingly there was a correlation between the increase in weapons and the increase in polygamy within some tribes.

[PumpkinGordino]

Messy I'm glad to see your comment as it suggests I'm not entirely misremembering!

Slugs i think you're right, but that does also require a society to be patrilineal in terms of inheritance etc. I'm not sure which is the consequence of the other iyswim.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Slug, that would certainly explain the measures societies have gone to to enforce female fidelity: FGM, pre-Norton custody laws (still prevalent in certain countries) enforced polygamy and social shaming.

I also remember reading an excellent collection of essays that placed the origins of Patriarchy before the importance of paternity and the rise of capital: women were seen as the main sources of labour (childcare, producers of food, etc) and this made them desirable commodities to be passed between family units.

It's certainly true that the practice of girls being sent to the husband's family breaks up the collective power of women whilst keeping those of men (who stay with their families) intact.

[Seff]

I was contemplating this the other day actually, where did sexism start? I thought perhaps that at some point, if a large group of males were lost through hunting, fighting or something similar, the remaining boys and men would be considered quite vital and perhaps worthy of 'protection'.

If a group of boys thought they were more 'special' than their female peers, maybe things could have gone from there?

I was imagining that in hunter/gatherer societies, jobs would be assigned based on ability - the best hunters would hunt (male or female) etc.

My brain needs more coffee before I can type more articulate. And before I can figure out if "more articulate" is correct or not! So, apologies!

[Seff]

Although I would assume it's most likely to have been a gradual change over many generations.

Interesting subject though!

[Boomtownsurprise]

Yes. Was featured in Grazia recently. It's a matriarchal society. Girls are the 'bosses', and revered. Men do all the 'lower' work.

Forget where, mountains somewhere. Mongolia/Amazon type place.

[PumpkinGordino]

matriarchal =/= not sexist necessarily

there may still be rigidly enforced gender roles

[TheWanderingUterus]

Along similar lines, I remember reading possibly margaret Mead, complaining that male anthropologists either couldn't or wouldn't talk to female members of the group they were studying. They also didn't always ask questions about female lives, especially things like childbirth, childcare and menstruation.

This was 1930s and she said that in one case women didn't talk to men at all, they had their own separate language, customs and festivals. The men only knew the shared language and it was part of their society that they didn't talk about or observe the female rituals.

Because there were only very few female anthropologists, a lot of information was lost in this way too.

[IdealistAndProudOfIt]

Another difficulty is tha we don't actually have a lot of information on daily behaviour in pre-historical societies. It is a very difficult thing to infer from archaeological records (nearly all archaeological theory is devoted to trying to do this).
Much information comes from roman and greek sources and as they were pretty badly sexist.... (the whole episode with boudicca was the result of roman sexism - and greed).

There are hints that the celtic peoples, however accuarate it is to talk of them altogether (a whole other debate) allowed much higher status of women. This book looks like it talks about them, haven't read it though www.amazon.co.uk/Celtic-Women-Society-Literature/dp/0802838081?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21. I've also come across hints for Carthage and Phoenicia, but very little is known about them either - there are 2 pages saying roughly that in Markoe's 'The Phoenicians', and there's not many modern books about them either. There's the enigmatic figure of the Queen of the Sheba from the bible. And suggestions that the status of women in China, while generally low, occasionally bounced up a bit - enough to provide the occasional woman warriors. Looking for women warriors might find you a few more, but again... mostly myth and legend.

I guess if we can't report modern societies well, as people have said above, ehat hope for ancient.

[IdealistAndProudOfIt]

Incidentally, my 'Ancient Inventions' (James & Thorpe) has a little passage about the possibility of fairly effective oral contraceptions among native american indians, which might have a link to a putative higher status of women there. I don't know anything else about American history though! My own feeling, with TheUterus upthread is that childbearing and associated mortality was and is a major problem for women. That and the unfortunate fact of having a physical sign for virginity which really shows to me that if there is a god, he is male, sexist and worthy of a punch in the knackers head (I am not a believer btw!).

[Spiritedwolf]

I can't remember the source (so that maybe makes it a bit useless) but I remember hearing of a hunter gatherer/nomadic people in Africa who didn't have sustained DV, because if people were treated badly then they just left to another group (often where there were extended family members or friends), and likewise if the group thought a child was being mistreated then other members of the group would take the child in.

I think the conclusion drawn from the researcher/interviewer was that living in the nomadic environment required people's co-operation, if you started behaving like a jerk then people around you up and left.

I don't know if it was all round non-sexist, but it did seem that women and children had more power than in settled agricultural communities.

If that dynamic wasn't unusual, then it may have been true of some other nomadic/hunter gatherer communities in the past. (Though presumably they weren't immune from sexism).

[rosy71]

It's not really possible to know that much about pre-historical societies & I'd agree that other/precious societies are often interpreted using the values of the observer ie western men.

I'm no expert but Ancient Egypt was pretty egalitarian and I think hunter-gatherer societies are also considered pretty equal. Isn't Iceland a very equal society today because the harsh weather conditions there made life very difficult & everyone had to play a full role in life there?

[rosy71]

Whoops! Where I've put precious, it should read previous.

I've read that Native American societies were quite equal too.

[BreakingDad77]

Wasn't there a programme on tv some years ago where there was some community in east asia where you had communities where one woman could have multiple husbands?

Want there that 'Tribe'? programme where the men all had to put on makeup and feathers etc and dance for the women to get their approval?

Women have had up and down time in vietnam - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Vietnam

Under communism women should be on an equal footing as men but this doesn't pan out generally, though they can hold high positions in power.

[ZombiePuffinsAreREAL]

The Russian example is interesting. Yes, women could hold positions of power, however, occupations which women tended to take up, went down in the populace's opinion. A good example of this would be medicine. Lots of women became doctors, and the respect for doctors went through the floor. It became a less desirable occupation to go into. Odd, isn't it?

[MardyBra]

Good thread. Sadly it seems to be quite short as there are so few examples. I wonder where the most female friendly society currently is in the world - I tend to assume it would be a Scandinavian country but would be interested to know for sure.

[Scarletohello]

Yes it is hard to find examples. I do find it a bit incredible that throughout the whole world, there have only been patriarchal societies, with a few rare exceptions of tribal communities where it was different.

I remember reading a book called The history of the orgasm, about different sexual practices throughout history, where they talked about a society in South America whereby a woman would have sex with up
to 5 men so that none of the men knew for sure who the father was and therefore they were all invested in helping to bring up the child. Quite a fascinating role reversal!

[FoxgloveFairy]

In pre and early Christian Ireland, women enjoyed a lot of rights not enjoyed by women elsewhere. They could hold public office on merit, WA,en had equal inheritance rights and could also divorce with a fair settlement, although divorce was only allowed in strict circumstances. Domestic violence and rape were severely punished.