Thinking about my daughter - schooling choice

[UsinedeGlue]

Hi

I don't want to drip feed but as a broad overview, do you feel that an all girls school is more or less likely to help develop a very clear sense of equality compared to a co-ed? My DD is 9.

DD has an excellent role model in her mother, in that she has a 'big' job, whilst I am a SAHD. But I feel the school have an important role to play too.

My DS is a a couple of years older, incredibly confident, funny, and one of those 'life & soul of the party' types (despite his age!), which can have the effect of overshadowing DD sometimes.

Thoughts?

I went to a single sex primary and secondary school. While I found secondary school, in particular, absolutely amazing and enjoyed every minute of it (due to a fantastic headteacher who was a true role model in every way) overall it did nothing for my confidence as I still had to deal with a misogynistic world once I had left the comfy womb of the school. I think what really had an effect on my outlook was the fact that my dad is a misogynist arsehole and my mother is a martyrish handmaiden. That example more than anything I learned in school shaped and fucked up my thinking.

IMO what you and your wife are teaching your DD will have more effect in the long run than what school she goes to. However, going to a single sex school may be a very positive experience in itself for her.

Cailindana, thanks for the reply. I'm torn at moment - hence the post - but I hear many good things about the headmistress in the girls school although I've not met her yet. The registrar at the co-ed school on the other hand did not impress me when I asked about how his school developed a sense of ambition, confidence and equality in the girls. So your experience of the headteacher making such a difference to this element of education is interesting. Thanks. In our family it's really only the grandparents (all of them) that haven't moved on much since about 1880...

I suppose one angle is that neither DD nor DW are very gregarious, and I've seen at first hand how that can be misinterpreted for weakness or being uninteresting. Neither or them are either of those - if you follow me!

How do you mean they not very gregarious?

I suppose meant they're not outspoken, a little less socially confident than some, happy to sit alone doing their own thing.

I went to all-girl primary and secondary schools, and I think they can be very restrictive as regards developing a sense of equality. It wasn't that the school didn't encourage us, and I could do any of the subjects I wanted, but by the final year of school, there was still an abundance of girls who wanted to be nurses and teachers. Those who entered science courses tended towards biology-based courses.

My family were very encouraging, and I was never made feel different to my brothers. Which is why I had no issue with choosing to become an engineer. It was tough in school though being 'the girl who wants to be an engineer'. The school were delighted, but it did almost seem like a bit of a kudos for them that I wanted to be an engineer. And teenage girls can be very catty. Girls felt free to make horrible comments all because I chose a male-dominated career.

The thing is, outside of school, I was involved in activities where both boys and girls attended. I was far more comfortable there. For one, there were others who wanted to be engineers (admittedly boys), so I wasn't so unusual there. I did occasionally hear comments about what I wanted to do in college (still always from girls), but what was different was the reaction of boys to such comments. They literally had never heard nonsense like it, and had no problem saying what they thought about that. That stopped a lot of the comments dead.

I have a daughter myself, and I suppose the only advice I can offer is that having been to a single-sex school myself, I want my daughter to go to a co-ed school.

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Watching this thread with (self-) interest .....

I'm trying to figure out why you mentioned the lack of gregariousness. Are you hoping school will help to cure it?

Is that not just personality though OP. Some people are more introverted than others. And if they are happy to sit alone doing their own thing, then there isn't an issue. The issue is if they are unhappy being on their own. I would want a school to help develop my daughter into being who she wants to be. No matter where your DD goes to school, you can't change how others will interpret who she is.

Squiggleirl - interesting. I didn't expect a resounding consensus!

I'd like DD to know we'd be very proud of her as a teacher, no more so than if she were on the board at Goldman Sachs; so long as she knows there is nothing to limit whatever it is that she choses to do. It is a little early to be that specific with her of course, but the International school she used to attend managed to reinforce stereotypes by offering ballet & craft activities for the girls while the boys could choose to build robots, play football, or learn about pitching a tent. I felt like I was fighting a losing battle, as did most other parents at the time.

DD is no walk over - she knows her own mind and has a strong work ethic, but if a school and DD's peers in the coming years have a bias, however unintentional, towards one group of subjects over another I'd rather have a heads-up on it now. I was thinking perhaps a co-ed school would bring the debate to her earlier. I'd like that, although not at the expense of be treated 'like a girl'.

" so long as she knows there is nothing to limit whatever it is that she choses to do."

You do realise that that's not actually true, don't you? Things may have changed when your DD is an adult, but as it currently stands there are many things that limit women. If you genuinely want to help your daughter it might be worth learning a bit more about what life is really like for a girl/woman.

Nope, I'm not hoping a school will cure anything. It's not an affliction. DD is who she is and in any case it's not as if she is socially inept.

I mentioned this simply because, as I clumsily put it, within a school environment I have seen how the more outgoing, communicative characters are often put into the box labelled 'interesting, confident, will do well in life', even when they are none of those things. Children who sense this risk the view becoming part of their self image.

Think I'm digressing a bit here!

"by the final year of school, there was still an abundance of girls who wanted to be nurses and teachers."

I think it will depend on the school - I went to an all girls comprehensive, and it was very different to that description. It wasn't particularly academic (catchment area + era), but certainly it was much, much easier to be a girl interested in physics, mechanics etc than it seemed to be for friends at mixed schools.

If nothing else, there has to be an effect if all the pupils taking physics A level, for example, are girls, compared to say 2 out of 15 at one school local to us.

Personally, and going by my own experiences, I would have been very interested in the option of single sex secondary education for my dd had it been available round here. (But equally, I wouldn't have chosen a less good single sex school over an excellent and well suited mixed one.)

Fair point, Cailindana. I should take more time drafting and be less sweeping with some of this, I know. Yes, I do appreciate that it's not completely true. Perhaps if we take all the jobs where women can perform as well as or better than men, those are the ones I had in mind when I stampeded over the keyboard and typed "nothing to limit whatever she choses to do". The things that limit women are often societal or corporate culture. I can't do anything about those. I can only do my little bit as a parent.

Qualifier: I'm in Ireland, so slightly different education system but I researched this a lot last year before deciding finally on a girls school.

I studied the league tables obsessively for a few years in the run up to the decision! I tried to consider the factors that would effect the results (eg, children at private (mixed) schools get more private tuition). Whether or not the schools did a bit of cherry-picking from the start.

I had read a lot on line about girls being less encouraged to do honours maths and honours physics in mixed schools, so I found out from a good source (!) that for 2012 the mixed school had only 3 girls planning to sit honours maths in The Leaving Cert and only 5 planning to sit honours physics.

The intake per year at both schools was roughly 150, but even allowing for the fact that approx 75 were boys at the mixed school, and so, if they encouraged girls equally then the girls school would have twice as many girls sitting maths and physics.

But after checking at the girls school, they were happy to tell me the numbers of girls they had sitting these honour level subjects and I worked out that they had between 3 and 4 times as many girls sitting the higher level subjects. So definitely, at least in the case of the two particular schools I was considering, girls were more encourage to do 'traditionally male' subjects.

I do know that league tables aren't everything by the way. It was just how I decided between two schools that were both very good. She might not be able for honours maths (i wasn't) but if she is, I have more faith that that ability will be noticed and encouraged at her girls school.

That's true Glue. While it's fine to tell a girl that as far as ability is concerned there's nothing to stop her doing any job that she wants to do (within reason of course!) to tell a girl that there's literally nothing standing in her way is doing her a huge disservice IMO because she will feel that any "failure" she has is down to her rather than down to the misogyny/sexism that might have stood in her way.

BTW you can do something about the societal limitations put on your daughter, if you want to.

SurelyCurly/Cailindana: In haste now - back soon - cake needs to come out of oven and need to go into town.

True and depressing cailindana.

I think it matters what sector women go in to. There has to be a really clearly defined pay structure in your field to avoid being paid less than a man for doing the same thing.

I think the decision about what is best for your DD is a very personal one - there are pros and cons either way, and depends on the actual schools you have on offer.

But for society overall, equality would be easier to achieve more people went to co-ed schools rather than single sex. As a generalisation, in my experience, men who are the product of all boys schools seem to find it hardest to treat women as equals. The culture that often develops in boys-only schools isn't great for teaching boys to respect women. And I notice you've not even asked the question about where to send your DS - my guess is you've sent him to a mixed school. But if girls choose single sex schools in large numbers, then there have to be boys only schools too (or schools with very skewed gender intakes) so it is part of a bigger picture.

Well yes, I will send my son to the mixed school I referred to! I'd worry that the attitude towards women isn't great at the nearby all boys school. I suspect, I'd be horrified by the conversations of most teenage boys no matter what school they attend!.

Back again & thanks for the replies.

I agree with the comments about all-boys schools, so yes DS will go to a mixed school. I would prefer that DS & DD attended the same school, quite apart from the logistics, they are very close as siblings and I wouldn't want to do anything to weaken that. But then they'd only have two overlapping years at the co-ed school, so it's not likely to be so much of an issue as it has been thus far, where they hate being apart. DD is enthusiastic about both schools, assuming that continues, the decision really has to reduce itself to the mindset DD is likely to be surrounded by. (They're both great schools, BTW)

SurelyCurly, I like the approach of researching the results tables to screen for subject-gender patterns. Very encouraging observations for the schools you looked into - I will do something similar with the two I have in mind.

I credit my single sex education bw 13 and 16 with giving me the confidence to study science - something I'm sure I would never have done in a co-ed . But I was a very shy teenager and this was almost 30 years ago- hopefully it's seen as more acceptable for girls to like science now. That said, if I had a daughter as shy and self concious as I was I would definitely consider a single sex school for her.

I agree with Purple, it will be a personal decision based on many factors but girls are probably going to do well both at single sex and co-ed schools. It's what happens afterwards in job land which is going to have the biggest effect on them.

Having attended a co-educational school, I am still friends with several of the boys who are now men I admire. They for the most part have happy marriages and good relationships with women, in contrast (with some notable exceptions) to those who I have known who went to all male schools. Possibly the most important move for girls, in the long term, is to have more co-ed schools.

In contrast to BarbarianMum 's experience several girls moved to our school from single sex schools to do science which wasn't taken seriously at their schools (many years ago....) so finding the flavour of the school is also important.

In terms of a sense of equality - I think it can come from both types of school with subtle differences. I posted a paper on the How to be a feminist father thread which describes these differences, although you have to wade through a lot of text, it is from US and 1994.

It's ironic that to make a difference for girls the major issue, in terms of schooling, is likely to be where we send our boys.

Well there's pros and cons.

Other threads have indicated that a maybe disproportionate number of regulars who post on here had at least some education in a single sex environment. Make of that what you will!

I think it is highly dependent on the school and eg a great co-ed will be better than a shit single sex obviously.

But, all things being equal. At my single sex school there was never any feeling that some subjects were more "for" girls and others for boys - they were all for all of us. I enjoyed maths and physcis and so that was what I followed. It wasn't until I moved into a mixed educational environment when I was older + started getting out more to the pub etc that I realise just how unusual that is.

I have never had any problems with socialising with boys/men which always seems to be one of the "concerns" raised on this topic.

So there you have my two pennorth.

Oh also have not RTFT sorry if have repeated loads of stuff.