Third of women say there are varying degrees of rape

(99 Posts)

..and that it isn't rape if the victim doesn't fight back.

Article here

How on earth do people still believe this kind of crap?? How do we change it?

scallopsrgreat Fri 06-Sep-13 18:34:51

Apparently this 'report' was commissioned by Rape Crisis at all. They are supporting an initiative to increase the numbers of ISVAs but haven't done a survey (according to @RapeCrisisSth twitter feed). False reporting all round.

scallopsrgreat Fri 06-Sep-13 18:35:31

wasn't commissioned...

Kendodd Fri 06-Sep-13 18:46:48

I think there are degrees of damage rape can do, that could possibly be described as degrees of rape.

I think a man snatching and raping a child coming home from school is worse than a boyfriend raping his sleeping partner, she wakes up and tries to push him off. I think the problem is more that the second example (and other 'date rape' scenarios) isn't seen as a crime at all by many.

NiceTabard Fri 06-Sep-13 19:02:58

I think its' the wording.

In law rape is rape - it is a very specific act. It is then combined with other factors such as kidnap / assault / GBH / attempted murder / blackmail or whatever might have happened.

So the law takes into account that different events that include a rape can have additional factors. A rape is a rape is a rape though, the definition is not complicated.

HOWEVER I am not surprised that if asked "are some rapes worse than others" lots of people will say yes as they will have different scenarios in their heads involving different levels of violence and so on.

Not that this is right - but I can understand how they got that answer and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are "downplaying" some rapes IYSWIM.

The "if there's no evidence of a fight / she didn't say no" stuff is much more concerning.

If the same man is involved in all these pieces then it looks like he has an agenda and as it's the BBC there should be somewhere to go about that. But I don't think there is. This man is not into neutral reporting when it comes to sex crimes against women, at all.

NiceTabard Fri 06-Sep-13 19:04:25

Oh and with this man writing the article there is no guarantee that what he has reported rape crisis saying (which I agree sounds not like the sort of thing they would say) is anything like what they actually said.

CailinDana Fri 06-Sep-13 19:10:28

What I'm saying kendodd is that the idea that there are degrees of rape leads to the belief that situations like mine aren't a crime. It's true that a man snatching and raping a child has more impact than a man raping his partner but they are both rape because they both involve penetration without consent. The circumstances around the rape would be important in a trial but it can't be automatically assumed that a victim will feel or behave a certain way due to the "degree" of rape or that one "type" of rape isn't "legitimate."

Kendodd Fri 06-Sep-13 19:16:36

Well, as I said- 'I think the problem is more that the second example (and other 'date rape' scenarios) isn't seen as a crime at all by many.'

samandi Fri 06-Sep-13 21:41:37

Well, there ARE different degrees of rape. Just as there are different degrees of other types of assault. That seems pretty obvious. (Whether they are all legally distinct is another matter.)

It isn't not rape if the victim doesn't fight back, however.

NiceTabard Fri 06-Sep-13 21:45:27

Legally there aren't samandi.

It's this:

"A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents."

Rape is rape is rape is penetration with a penis without consent.
Other things like battery, level of injury are take into account / prosecuted as well.
But fundamentally, a rape is a rape is a rape. It is a very simple definition in law and that is what it is.

NiceTabard Fri 06-Sep-13 21:47:06

Oh sorry didn't read your post properly blush

The problem is that lots of people / media seem to dismiss lots of rape as "not real rape".

The message that rape is what it is - penetration without consent - needs to be put out there more.

specialsubject Fri 06-Sep-13 21:55:23

headline doesn't match article. Very bad journalism, credited to Amelia Butterly.

the women said that they thought it didn't 'count' as rape if the woman was drunk, or if she didn't say 'no'. Nowhere does it say that anyone said 'there are varying degrees of rape'. Nor do any of the responses judge anyone.

implication from the survey results (not the crap journalism) is that the victims don't report as they don't think anything will happen to catch the rapist.

samandi No, rape is rape. It's that you can have other crimes on top of it.

GettingStrong Fri 06-Sep-13 23:22:16

Although the legal definition of rape is very clear, I agree that there are different degrees of rape wrt the experience of being raped. I have never been raped by a stranger but imagine that must be the worst possible context. In my own experience, being forced to have sex with a partner when I was ill was much worse than being forced when I was not ill.

But I don't really see why it is helpful to draw attention to the differences in degree though, given so many women minimise what has happened to them anyway. I recently watched the film 'the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' and found myself watching the very brutal rape scenes in that thinking 'well, what have I got to complain about, nothing as traumatic as that has ever happened to me.' hmm

I am surprised at the comment from Rape Crisis about rape being the worst thing that can happen. Being raped by a partner certainly wasn't the worst thing that has happened to me. In fact the worst thing that this partner did to me sexually wasn't actually something that is officially classed as rape anyway. (And for ages after that I thought 'well, it wasn't rape, so why has it upset me so much he did that against my will?')

I am also surprised at the comment from Rape Crisis that 'it is going to affect women in exactly the same way'. I have certainly been affected by the time that I spent in such a crap relationship, but I find it hard to believe that I will have been affected in 'exactly the same way' as someone raped by a stranger in a dark alley.

Maybe it is just that the woman from Rape Crisis has been somehow taken out of context or misquoted.

queenofdrama Fri 06-Sep-13 23:29:08

If you don't say 'No', then it's not rape. It is different through if you're under the age of consent. IMO

WhentheRed Fri 06-Sep-13 23:32:55

I look at it the other way - if there is no "yes", then there is no consent. if you don't say "yes", then it is rape.

CaptChaos Fri 06-Sep-13 23:34:31

So.... saying 'get off' or anything other than 'no' doesn't count? Saying nothing because you're afraid means you have consented?

If you don't enthusiastically consent, then it's rape.

Even if you have consented before, if you don't consent this time, it's rape.

Anything else is a rape myth, and could be viewed as victim blaming.

Children under the age of consent cannot consent enthusiastically or otherwise.

queenofdrama Fri 06-Sep-13 23:38:43

Fgs. 'No' can come in many forms. Of course 'get off' etc means you don't consent. When, do you say yes everytime you dtd?

BasilBabyEater Fri 06-Sep-13 23:42:35

"If you don't say 'No', then it's not rape. "

Eh?

Was that a mistake?

You do realise that's not right, don't you?

WhentheRed Fri 06-Sep-13 23:42:59

dtd? What's that?

"Yes" can also come in many forms. But what is required is an actual active consent. Simply not saying no does not equal consent.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 06-Sep-13 23:52:05

You don't have to say no for it to be rape. For the very good reason that if you are drunk, or otherwise incapacitated, you are unable to say no. You are also unable to consent.

Enthusiastic consent needs to be sought and ensured.

NiceTabard Fri 06-Sep-13 23:52:39

did the deed

times when someone might not say "no"

gagged
terrified
frozen
drunk/drugged
groomed/coerced
etc

Loads of people don't say "no".
I said "please don't"
For example
FFS

TooMuchFuckingPerspective Fri 06-Sep-13 23:58:23

I've just recently realised that I was raped about 10 years ago. I told friends what happened and none of them thought of it as rape. Actually my boy friend at the time didn't see it as rape but as cheating. I thought I was an intelligent person. Can't believe I'm finally saying this out loud. Feel ashamed.

CaptChaos Fri 06-Sep-13 23:59:59

FGS.

I was so terrified and such a bloody innocent that I didn't understand what he was doing until he was doing it. Given that he had shoved an old worn pair of socks in my mouth, I didn't have a chance to say no, or anything else in fact. I tried to with my eyes though, does that count as saying no?

I assume that, when he drove me home telling me that I'd enjoyed it, he felt he had enthusiastic consent.

Good to know it wasn't rape though, all those years of trauma.

sad angry

GettingStrong Sat 07-Sep-13 00:00:05

Where partner rapes are concerned, I am not sure it is even as simple as it never being rape if you say yes.

E.g. if you end up saying yes because you are so worn down and fed up of trying to explain why you don't want to have sex and you know that if you say yes and get it over with you will at least be able to sleep in 10 minutes time.

Whereas if you continue to say no - you know the routine and you know that you will still end up having sex when he forces himself on you anyway. But maybe he won't do that until he's tried a bit longer to get you to consent first - and you are knackered and just want to get some sleep.

runningonwillpower Sat 07-Sep-13 00:00:25

NiceTabard describes it well.

There aren't degrees of rape. Rape is rape is rape.

But there are degrees of related violence. That's a fact - some women are beaten horribly in the commission of the offence. So the offences have to be separated. And should be tried as such.

You don't have to be battered to be raped. But the batterer should be charged with that as well.

But who is to evaluate the damage of rape?

Is it worse to be physically beaten by the stranger who leapt from the alley?

Or physically abused and emotionally damaged by the betrayal of a trusted friend/partner/relative?

How does anyone really estimate the damage done to another person?

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