Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

(346 Posts)
dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 01:22:29

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:57:46

Oh well.

That means I'll never find out how to lead a man by his dick...

And I get to keep my new year's resolution! grin

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 21:35:14

I'm going to stop taking part in this. It's far too late, I'm behind on stuff I must do, and I think I've explained what happened. It wasn't such an important incident anyway, I posted about it because it was relevant to this thread and the whole thing rather puzzled me.

My son's feminism hasn't been affected by this. It was just an evening, and a strange incident. He couldn't see why a woman should seem to actively want him and the other boys to disrespect her, I suppose.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:25:28

LOL. Have no intention of debating all night.

Will wrestle with the off button at a suitably civilised time - my new year's resolution was to switch off internet by 10PM every night, 9PM if possible. Ahem. 9PM hasn't been possible tonight.

Well seeing as I've got the post message box open, I've got another question. What does the term "leading around by the dick" mean?

I presumed it meant a sexually assertive woman using her sexual attraction to get what she wants from a man who is responding positively to that.

But that obviously isn't what it means, so what does it mean?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 21:21:26

YY FB.

<hums "I Could Have Debated All Night">

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:13:54

Maybe it's not being ignored Kim, maybe we just haven't got on to it yet. The night is young after all.

Also, we can only speculate on the reasons for her behaviour, whereas we can actually ask Writehand about her and her DS's responses to that behaviour.

kim147 Fri 01-Mar-13 21:07:27

A question that seems to be being ignored is why "the girls felt the need to act in this sexually aggressive way" with the boys.

dummad Fri 01-Mar-13 21:06:41

That's what I was getting at - like Doctrine said.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:04:26

And I'm still not sure what you mean by "exploited".

Do you mean because they turned up to a party where they hadn't really been invited (by the host at least) and drank the booze and ate the food and exploited people's good manners in not turfing them out immediately they arrived?

Or do you mean that this particular fighty girl exploited his decency by hitting him knowing he wouldn't hit her back?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 21:01:15

So let's say this particular young woman is equivalent to a flasher. That's bad.

She hit him. That's bad.

The power that she has there is a social norms one ie that he won't hit her back. Plenty of women are also constrained by social norms (eg not to yell at a creep in a bar groping you as it's overreacting).

I don't think that "the girls have all the power", though. I don't think we can generalise from this example.

I'm not clear if your son now questioning his support for feminism because he met some unpleasant young women, that seemed to be an implication of your first post but I'm not sure that's what you meant.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 21:01:13

OK I'm still not getting this.

You haven't actually answered any of my questions Writehand, you've just got offended that I asked them.

I get that this girl was aggressive and unpleasant and not the sort of girl your boy would normally hang around with.

But I'm interested in your contention that these girls had "power" in this situation.

I'm still not sure what power you are talking about. The power to hit boys? Not really, your boy could have called the police if he'd been so inclined. The power to spoil the party? He threw her out.

What is this power?

The reason I raise the subject of rape, is because this is exactly the sort of situation where when women do get raped, the fact that they were wearing "slutty" clothes and behaving in this sexually aggressive manner, is enough to ensure that there is simply no point in even imagining that they should report it - there's no way the case would be taken to court and their rapist would get off scot-free. Everyone would say they were asking for it by dressing like that. I don't think it's irrelevant and outrageous to raise that on a thread like this, I'm slightly mystified by why it should be treated as some sort odd derailment. confused

TeiTetua Fri 01-Mar-13 20:35:40

I'm mostly on Writehand's side here, but I think everyone is grappling to find a way to express what took place in that incident. I do think it was an act of aggression on the girls' part, as in "I will seize your attention and embarrass you, and you won't have any choice in the matter." And the aggressive nature of the interaction was emphasized when the woman did indeed hit the man--knowing that this particular man would be very unlikely to hit her back. Given the direction of who did what to whom, it's a bit ironic to talk about "rape".

It's in line with the less attractive side of human nature, unfortunately, that the girls found some "nice boys" to make into victims; it's hard to imagine that they'd try it on with their own male counterparts.

Maybe one thing to say to the young man would be that being a good person rather than a bad one makes it easier for people to exploit you, if they have a desire to hurt someone. But it's still better to be good rather than bad.

dummad Fri 01-Mar-13 19:52:35

I can see what you 're saying Writehand, and I agree the way people present themselves will obviously have an impact on the world around them but apart from venting your opinion about this particular person, what is the point of your post? That's not me being confrontational by the way, I'm just interested in learning how this one off situation and individual person impacts things in the greater scheme of things, if at all, or that you are just reeling from your son's misfortune at having met someone with an over inflated ego and violent tendencies. Not sure if that makes complete sense grin!

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 19:35:43

Fastidia's missing my point -- the feelings of the boys in this situation about being treated as nothing but an audience for her self-promotion.

My DS didn't find her attractive. He didn't want to have sex with her, let alone consider her as a potential girlfriend. He found her offensive. That's why he asked her to leave. The gentle boys my DS has hung out with since primary school want -- and expect --- to relate to girls as people. Whole people.

Rape wasn't any part of the situation, and to bring it in makes as much sense as saying "Well, what if he'd beaten her up? Would that have been OK?" Which of course it wouldn't be. It would have been appalling if he'd hit her back, let alone attacked her.

My DS didn't like that there was no sense of wanting to get to know people, friendliness -- all she was offering was a huge amount of purely superficial very provocative exposure for whatever reason she had -- it was human interaction that the boys objected to not getting, not sex. She wasn't a very nice girl.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 19:14:50

Sorry WH, I meant the male equivalent to the "sexual display" the young woman was undertaking. Or was she also gazing at the guys' crotches etc, which is what I would equate to leering?

PromQueenWithin Fri 01-Mar-13 19:12:59

Well, technically, being interested in an analysis of power relations between the genders isn't just a preoccupation of Fastidia. It's fairly integral to the problem of inequality...

Sure, wasn't nice to be uncouth and rude, spoil the atmosphere at your son't party and hitting is of course unacceptable, but can't you see how a preoccupation with how the girls were dressed highlights inequality, right there?

Can you answer the question of what you and your son would have thought if one of those girls had been raped at the party? Because I'd be willing to bet that at no point he felt physically at risk of such a violation from any of those girls.

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 18:49:39

Fastidia, I feel your reply says more about your preoccupations than my description of a real event. Lots more. There's not a lot of overlap.

Treating people as purely sexual -- no romance, no humour -- just sex -- is pretty crass, whatever their sex. The lead around by his dick was a joke, which is why I did strikethrough. The key word in that sentence was "exploited" -- and that's what he didn't like.

Sure, he's responsible for his actions. His room, his party and his responsibility to control the atmosphere of what was supposed to be a fun & friendly low-key occasion. He asked them to leave because he didn't like how they were treating him and his friends. She hit him. Sez a lot.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 18:33:58

"The power in the situation was all with the girls. That's the point, and I think that's what he's objecting to: being exploited lead round by the dick by these sophisticated confident girls,"

"The girls definitely have all the power."

This is twice you mention "power" and the girls having all of it.

I think it's worth exploring this. What sort of power are you talking about?

The power to cause men / boys to get erections?

That power's not that powerful is it?

In what way are they "exploiting" boys like your son? Because they are leading him by his dick? He's responsible for his dick, is he not? Did they put a rope on it and lead him around by it? Is he making them responsible for his sexual response to them? Is he expressing resentment about a sexual response he has to someone he doesn't actually like / respect very much? That's what it sounds like to me, but without more discussion with you I don't know if that's right?

If any of those girls had been raped by any of the boys at that party, I think we'd pretty soon find out where the real power is. Everybody would have blamed them because they were dressed the way they were and nobody would have believed that nice boys like your DS's friends could be rapists. That's real power, it's an awful lot more useful than being able to elicit an erection from a teenage boy (something about 90% of stuff in the world can do anyway tbf grin)

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 17:29:53

I suppose the male equivalent would be a leerer, a letch, a starer down tops. Someone who only related to the girls present as potential sexual partners.

Actually, it helps to write it out. I've come to see that what my son was objecting to was being treated like an object rather than an individual. And I think porn culture has a lot to do with it.

The girls definitely have all the power. But they're not getting much out of it, seems to me. I do find the whole "look like a lap dancer" fashion a bit of a mystery.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 17:21:43

TBF, Writehand, it sounds like this particular young women was generally a bit obnoxious and would have been so regardless of clothes.

What would be the male equivalent of her behaviour do you think - a flasher? A bollock-rearranger?

FloraFox Fri 01-Mar-13 17:17:39

Porn culture?

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 16:40:35

I only saw them arrive. I wasn't there when they left, so I can only say what he told me. You know how it is when you're a teenager, how vague who turns up at a party can be. The blokes they came with had not been invited, they just turned up and the girls they brought with them were complete strangers. So they weren't asked, but they didn't gatecrash.

The group that were already there knew each other well, and then this others, about 6, arrived piled in. The boys were rougher than my DS's friends, and the girls -- though very dressed up indeed -- were what I'd think of as very rough.

He asked this particular girl to leave because of her behaviour was making everyone uncomfortable. She was behaving in a coarse way that wasn't designed to make friends or have fun. It was all about getting the reaction she wanted. When he asked them to leave she hit him. He says he was probably out of order and could have been more tactful.

I don't think I'm explaining it very well. I've looked very sexy when I was young on purpose, but there is -- or can be -- something aggressive and hostile in presenting yourself in the most provocative way possible and relating to other party-goers solely in that role. No smiles or chat, just pouting and posing. If you go to a party surely you go to have fun & make or confirm friendships?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 16:09:45

Sorry, scrub first phrase, you said they weren't gatecrashers!

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 01-Mar-13 16:09:08

The young women were brought along by young men who know your DS, is that right? How were they gatecrashers?

How would you feel if someone asked you to leave somewhere because of how you were dressed - did your DS actually say that?

She was wrong to slap him, of course.

Writehand Fri 01-Mar-13 15:50:12

From what I understand, as I said, the girls weren't exactly gate-crashers but they were not invited. They then sprawled around showing an embarrassing amount of flesh & thong. What might have looked OK standing at a nightclub bar was way too revealing when semi-reclining on a mattress on the floor.

It wasn't just the clothes, it was the attitude. My DS felt that all they wanted was a sexual response. There was no chat, no fun. Just this business about their appearance - "look at me". You don't get a friendly, party atmosphere thing when people come on so strong. And to be so overt in a quiet private house is just uncomfortable.

OK, we get used to our own norms, but I can't imagine most people would feel relaxed if a cluster of girls dressed like Victoria's Secret models piled into their kitchen.

dummad Fri 01-Mar-13 14:41:15

It's sad that such a situation arose and that your son ended up getting hurt.

But rather than accusing the girls of leading him by the dick and saying they looked like strippers (which isn't a very nice thing to say to someone let's face it), he might have said something like: 'I'm sorry, as it's my flat I'm going to have to ask you to leave because I'm finding myself distracted by the way you are dressed and I'd rather just have a quiet night tonight with my friends.'

That is understandable because it would be putting the onus onto him and not them.

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