Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

(346 Posts)
dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 01:22:29

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

MamaMary Sun 27-Jan-13 12:26:59

Sorry for typos, on phone.

I referred to the influence of porn not point.

MamaMary Sun 27-Jan-13 12:28:16

sex objects not sexy. Stupid phone!

HeyHoHereWeGo Sun 27-Jan-13 12:54:44

OP it is horrifying.
When I was going out in the late 90s and early 00s women actually wore jeans and pretty top; short dress with thick black tights etc
I went out recently and was sick to my stomach - a group of girls dancing on a table with brazilians and no knickers! (not a hen party, not a seedy night club, just a late bar)
Every woman big or small wearing barely anything, not even flattering, just tiny tops, tiny skirts, stripper heels.
Myself and my friends did not know where to look and left early
I dont know whats happened.
I would hate to be a young woman these days.
(I am early 30s)

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 13:14:13

There have always been different groups in society, depending on interests, culture and region, that have dressed differently. There were people who dressed up or dressed down in the eighties and nineties and people who do it now. In the nineties, I could be in one pub dressed one way and have friends in another pub across the road they were dressed as the OP has described.

Women dress in a sexy way for a variety of reasons. It is often just because that is the fashion for certain people where they live. It could be that they are doing it for sexual reasons, but often the sexual reason is that for some women it is sexually enjoyable to dress in a 'sexy' way and go out drinking, socialising and often dancing with their female friends. It is a complete sexual experience in itself. I don't know why people think every element of sexuality is leading towards having sex with somebody else. There is nothing wrong with people expressing sexuality through dress if that is meaningful to them; it doesn't mean they want to have sex that night or that everyone else has to dress that way.

Men who are used to the kind of culture don't necessarily think the women are somehow more sexual than other kinds of women, or doing it for men's attention. Their mothers, sisters and wives often dress that way too. And there is nothing wrong with some women wanting to socialise more with their own gender more than men. You don't know what these women's attitudes are to feminism or anything else. You don't know anything about them.

LouMae Sun 27-Jan-13 13:15:16

Really heyho? I hit the clubbing scene in the late 90s and we all used to wear little dresses and big wedge platform heels (in fashion then), along with hideous crop tops and a line denim mini skirts with buttons on! Shudder at the memory!

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 13:19:35

There was a big fashion in the mid nineties for going out to clubs in tactel underdresses; they were semi-transparent. I used to go out in them one night and be in the pub in jeans and a hoodie the next. I didn't have a personality transformation overnight. I wasn't sexually harassed by the shirtless boys in low slung trousers I danced with either.

Xenia Sun 27-Jan-13 13:31:45

Look on the bright side. Today's news is that female entrepreneurs earn more than men and women do better setting up their own businesses than working for others. I think that's really positive news and mirrors my own situation.

However it remains the case that the best route out of poverty for most women sadly is to marry a richer man so I'm sure dressing in a way they think will attract the right one and staying slim is part oft he plan for many. Look at how many women on mumsnet live off male earnings - it was clearly a plan which worked for them - attract man, be kept for life and serve him at home.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 13:36:30

You sound like you absolutely detest women, OP.

They are a fucking disgrace.
You lost your argument with that statement

They dress that way because they want to, because its fashion, because they are young , slim and beautiful

It's not a new thing. 12/13 years ago I used to go out with waist length blonde extensions , massive false lashes, tons of fake tan and hot pants/ High heels

Yes I got the comments from men and te cheers etc - just made me pity them for behaving like Prats to be honest. Never picked up a one night stand, very very rarely kissed anyone , was just out to have a good time with my friends and enjoy dressing up

If men can't accept that and want to use it as an excuse for sexual assault- verbal or physical then one suggests it is the men with the problem, not the women

BelaLugosisShed Sun 27-Jan-13 13:44:50

Dummad, your OP is a woman-hating, woman-blaming disgrace. It sounds like something right out of the Daily mail.

My DD is in the demographic you are talking so appallingly about, she has thousands of pictures on Facebook of nights out at University and at home, she dresses in short skirts and high heels, as do all her friends, she's always out in a huge mixed group and rather than showing the women looking "tarty and vacant" they are obviously having a great time.
She has a Maths degree and is doing her teacher training at the moment, if that's even relevant.

Fashions are no more "slutty" or "provocative" than they were in the 60's , 70's, 80's or beyond.

"I agree that sexual violence against women is only going to get worse, especially if women are dressing like prostitutes and getting drunk"
I can't believe I've read that on this board.

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 13:45:55

" Young slim and beautiful" hahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Been out to any bog standard club in a bog standard town recently? shock

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 13:48:51

Of course things are different.

In my yoof we were in mixed groups, drank pints and wore DM's.

It's all this ridiculous duckface posturing they do too.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 13:49:34

This really is the most vile thread.

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 13:51:35

Why?
Because some of us find women semi dressed in public a problem?

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 13:54:04

As per usual no political analysis just a lot of individualised posturing about personal rights. sad

But skittish it doesn't matter if they are old, fat and ugly either and you are missing the point

If that is how they choose to dress than so be it. How fantastic that we, as women can dress exactly how we choose.
We don't have to cover up lest the menz are unable to control themselves

Should we be defined by how we dress ?

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 14:00:31

I agree Mini. I meet lots of young women and so many of them seem to have no idea feminism exists. They wear provocative clothes, posture and pout. They giggle and pay helpless because, for some unfathomable to me, reason they think men find this little girl helplessness attractive.
It's linke din with an article I read recently about a worrying lack of muscle in many women - they are either thin and lacking muscle or fat and lacking muscle as it's not attractive, apparently to be strong and defined. Add in a fear of having any bloody pubes and Germaine must be feeling suicidal!

Shit, I'm getting old but it's all rather depressing.

Skittish Sun 27-Jan-13 14:02:41

Korma. Are you deliberately missing the point? Do you really believe any of us make an objective choice in a vaccum?
And you may not think you are defined by how you dress but you are judged on it, whether you like it or not. Or would you rock up for a job interview dressed like those girls?

WidowWadman Sun 27-Jan-13 14:07:53

skittish - you sound more like a misogynist than a feminist.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:09:49

I don't think people do judge each other that much based on their clothes. People are perhaps more tolerant now than they used to be. There is usually a dress code for work because you are representing the organisation, but what people wear in their own time is up to them.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:09:50

" That now some battles have been won portraying themselves as vulnerable sex objects that have nothing more to contribute. "

i dont understand this comment.

how can you tell from across a street or bar that a woman has set herself out to appear vulnerable and with nothing more to contribute? contribute to what? the conversation that night, her own social life, what? what do you mean and how can you tell from where her hemline finishes? confused

I was gonna comment sensibly but now Xenia has turned up with what looks like far more women hating as usual I'm not even gonna try. This thread will only get worse and wind me up. Fwiw I agree with several different viewpoints expressed and am getting increasingly worried about the way this world is heading.

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 14:10:56

I did say when I posted I was a bit drunk so I agree my initial comments may have been a bit strong. However, if what I saw prompted a response in me like that, the likelihood is the way these women are dressing is prompting s similarly strong response from everyone else they happen to encounter. Whether it's a positive, empowering one. Or a negative one.

Also, I am not victorian in my views, or sheltered. I am a businesswoman who owns three businesses. I have travelled the world independently, have been to university and left home when I was 18. I have seen life.

I will say this needs our attention if our gender is to progress. And this is far from a 'vile' thread.

Well all of our choices are controlled by the media / fashion / peers aren't they ?
And no one would go for a job Interview wearing the same outfit they would wear for a night out so I find that argument pointless to be honest with you - a lbd or jeans and a nice top would hardly be appropriate either would it ?

This vacuum of which you refer to - I presume you are alluding to our being conditioned by the media to dress this way ??

Has even happening since the invention of the media surely ?
And at the end of the day, does it really matter if someone judges you ? We are judged or everything we do and every decision we make
Surely as a women, the empowerment is there in making out own decisions regardless of how we will be Judged ?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:14:34

"especially if women are dressing like prostitutes "

please go and meet some prostitutes and then tell me that what you see in the city bars on a saturday night is the same as what you see on prostitutes. pretty woman has a lot to answer for.

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