Sugar daddy arrangements

[katiemummy2012]

Following on from the prostitution thread where I mentioned the sugar daddy arrangement being like prostitution, but got no response. I'd like to ask mumsnetters opinion on sugar daddy relationships ie the woman (usually young and attractive) has an arrangement with a usually older man with money. He buys her nice things /gives her an allowance and in return the woman has sex with him, looks good on his arm etc.

I've read a lot about this in magazines and it seems to be quite common, there are sugar baby and daddy websites too. Obviously many mumsnetters have a negative opinion on prostitution and imo this is almost exactly the same. What do you think? Is it right for a woman to service a man's needs for material gains?

Would you say its a feminist issue that women are motivated to use their attractiveness and youth to gain money and status in life? What is your opinion on sugar daddies, are they perverted and taking advantage of women's economic position?

And if you are fine with the sugar arrangements but not fine with escorting/prostitution EVEN when the women are willing and earning well (like the sugar baby), why is that, and what reasons have you got to substantiate the difference?

[Kiwiinkits]

I'll start.
Part of being liberated, I think, is being free to make your own mistakes. Both men and women, particularly those who are less endowed on the intelligence front, choose professions or lifestyles that are demeaning or unhealthy. Being a sugar baby sure is demeaning, as is being an escort. But there are plenty of men who do stupid things for money or glory. Prisons are full of these idiots. Basically, you can't save people from themselves so live and let life. All you can do is live an upstanding and wholesome life, help people when you can, grow responsible kids. Angsting over other women's choices won't change a thing: the stupid are always with us.

[katiemummy2012]

I do agree that its each persons choice what they do with their life, I was more wondering what mumsnetters thought about the effect the increase of sugar daddy arrangements has on women's status as a whole. A lot of sugar daddies are married too and have what is basically an affair on the man's terms with the sugar baby.

Do you think that aslong as it is acceptable for men to 'buy' women like this (these women are only the daddies baby for the financial rewards he gives her) that women will never be equal in society?

[Kiwiinkits]

I dunno if there's an increase in this sort of arrangement; it's been around since the year dot. At least now young women are powerful/clued-up enough now to know what the arrangement actually is - a financial one - instead being naive and deluded enough to think that it's driven by love or actual affection (and therefore being used).

[madwomanintheattic]

Don't recognise an increase.

I think you're just spending too much time reading crap magazines.



On a slight tangent, I explained to dd1 and dd2 what the slogan on their Christmas present from sil meant (golddigga sweatshirt) and neither of them will wear it out of the house. I really like sil. But it's as bad as having 'juicy' splashed over your arse.

[madwomanintheattic]

Kiwi, sadly, choices aren't made in a vacuum.

[stargirl1701]

I think there is a physiological explanation to this. IMO these women tend not to have had stable, healthy relationships with their fathers. They seek out validation through material things from older men.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Can I get "Sadly, choices aren't made in a vacuum" on a Tshirt please? Or maybe a badge (sounds SGB badge-klaxon)

Is it right for a woman to service a man's needs for material gain or, with alternate phrasing," is it right for a man to use money and other material goods to pay a woman to service their sexual needs"- No, it isn't.

(I inserted sexual to clearly differentiate from paying a gardener to service your gardening needs etc)

[snowiceslush]

OP Are you referring to this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1640972-Good-piece-on-sex-work-by-Laurie-Penny
when you mention the prostitution thread ?

I agree with TheDoctrineOfSnatch

is it right for a man to use money and other material goods to pay a woman to service their sexual needs"- No, it isn't. Well said!

[Kiwiinkits]

And equally, since we believe in self determination for women, is it right for women to accept money and other material things in exchange for sexual services? Hmmm not quite right but not completely wrong either... The power dynamic isn't always victim/oppressor in these relationships

[madwomanintheattic]

Massive assumption that we believe in self determination for women.

We believe women should self determine. But may be unable to, due to above absence of vacuum.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Kiwi, are you arguing that the sugar baby has more power than the sugar daddy?

[EldritchCleavage]

I don't actually see this as different from prostitution except in one respect: the woman only has one 'client', which greatly reinforces the power imbalance between the parties to the arrangement.

And of course it reinforces all the age-old patriarchal ideas objectifying women and casting it as natural for men to use and have power over them.

It reflects another phenomenon: the tendency of a lot of young attractive women to take the benefits those two attributes give them in patriarchy and see it as being strong, exercising choice and taking what they want from men as the equals of men. I don't think that's what it is at all.

[Kiwiinkits]

Temporarily she has more power, often, yes. While she's still young and pretty (and he's old and crusty). Then when she gets older, or gets pregnant to him, then not so much. But, as I said before, you'd have to be a bit stupid to get involved in one of these relationships - smart girls see through the fact that their power is temporary and go for stronger, more respectful men with a bit more stickability. But the dim are always with us, aren't they. Vacuum or no vacuum.

[Kiwiinkits]

and yes, women can be stupid (although it seems sometimes on this board that that cannot possibly be so - all decisions made by women are due to the patriarchy... er, no, sometimes decisions are just made by dim-wits).

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Men canbe stupid in the context of the patriarchy too, Kiwi.

[Anna20]

Hi katiemummy12 I know it has been a long time since you posted about your husband seeing local escorts, I just wanted to know what happened how could you be able to trust him again just asking as I have discovered that my husband is looking to escorts sites but he sweared that nothing happened and that he never saw anyone of them but I am devastated and I am not able to move on and trust him again just the idea of him doing it again is driving me mad I do feel so angry and sad as I can't see he was doing that he sais is just curious and he was crazy but it will never happen again I am doing my best but it is really hard and you know that (as per your own experience) the difference is you might be able to justify why he was doing that (even that I do believe that there is no reason that a man could pay for sex while he is married and you can not blame your self for being a mummy as this is the most beautiful and blessings thing could happens)but me I can not tell why I do have 2 children but I am still attractive did not gain wait am 20 years younger than him and never turned him down. I am not perfect for sure but I just can not justify it
We did agree to forget forgive and move on but I am struggling to trust him again ans did lost my self confidence I become really crazy jalous I want him to stay home all the time I know there is nothing I can do to prevent him doing that if he wants to but just don't know what to do really please advice
Sorry for being long thanks

[ChocChocPorridge]

Of course she doesn't have more power! He's the one with the money - he's buying her, as an ornament, he doesn't want to know about any of her humanity, he doesn't want her making her own decisions - he wants to choose what she wears when she's with him, how she acts. Any choice she has is only as long as he agrees!

You may as well say that in the relationship between me and my starbucks snack, it's the doughnut that has all the power. Of course it bloody isn't. It's me. I have the money, and I control both that money, and the doughnut.

[ChocChocPorridge]

ARRHGG Zombie thread. Sigh. Sorry everyone.

[DeepAndCrispAndEvenTheWind]

PITA isn't it, choc!

[KindDogsTail]

You may as well say that in the relationship between me and my starbucks snack, it's the doughnut that has all the power.

I can't help noticing that sometimes the doughnut does have the greater power!

Apropos of who has more power, Cousin Bette by Balzac, for anyone who has not read it, is about the power of courtesans who made their way, to a state of independence, through powerful and rich men who were powerless against their feelings of attraction to these women. The women became rich and powerful as so much was signed over to them in their own name, and/or they became well known for example as an opera singer.

Zsa Zsa Gabor was a bit like this.

If someone pays for their university degree this way, it would be similar. Presumably before they are old and thrown out, they get a degree and power in life for themselves.

In my opinion though, it is prostitution and may well come from a background where there might have been problems.

[KindDogsTail]

Sorry. I didn't see this was a zombie thread.

[DeepAndCrispAndEvenTheWind]

It is a sadly timely bump, given the sentencing today of a "sugar daddy" who murdered his younger girlfriend, who he was paying £10k per month.