The Taliban Are At It Again...

(45 Posts)
FrothyDragon Wed 24-Oct-12 22:22:33

Hinna Khan, 17, has been threatened by the Taliban

Surprise, surprise, another girl has become a target for daring to campaign for women's rights. sad

kim147 Wed 24-Oct-12 22:27:01

How the hell do you campaign for women's rights in a place where the Taliban exist? Her family sounds so brave - it must take a lot of courage. What kind of country does Pakistan want to be sad

FrothyDragon Wed 24-Oct-12 22:34:41

"Those Pakistanis who most oppose the Taliban have been disappointed that the attempted murder of Malala has not prompted another military crackdown against the Taliban, particularly in their sanctuaries in the tribal agency of north Waziristan."

I'm with them. sad What kind of society condones the threatening and attempted murder of children?

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 07:46:24

I think you should post this on the main board, I think people need to appreciate why Feminism is so necessary.

OneMoreChap Thu 25-Oct-12 12:05:44

FrothyDragon I completely agree it's contemptible...

but...

Those Pakistanis who most oppose the Taliban have been disappointed that the attempted murder of Malala has not prompted another military crackdown against the Taliban, particularly in their sanctuaries in the tribal agency of north Waziristan.

which may well be one of the aims of the Taliban, to show how "immoral" the Government is, that they attack the homes and families of "devout Muslims"

Pakistan? Basically a failed state with nuclear weapons.

namechangeguy Thu 25-Oct-12 12:11:19

'I think you should post this on the main board, I think people need to appreciate why Feminism is so necessary.'

Posie, could you expand on this for me please? In terms of what Feminism is doing to remove these crackpots, and how it proposes to replace it with a more equitable form of Government. Thanks.

EdithWeston Thu 25-Oct-12 12:20:40

The Taliban are killing about 3000 people a year in Pakistan, as well as so many more in Afghanistan.

I think their aim of removing all schooling except madrassahs for a few is pretty well known. As are their wider views on what society should look like.
One or two victims being seized on by the British media has indeed highlighted the problems, but does not represent the totality of the problem, nor does deploring it give a way ahead.

MrsClown Thu 25-Oct-12 12:28:37

Posie, totally agree with you. I work with women who dont think feminism is necessary. Oh how I would love to be proved wrong sometimes but to me it is as plain as the nose on your face as to why feminism is necessary. Whilst ever women in the world are being treated like this feminism will ALWAYS be necessary.

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 16:12:28

namechangeguy. If women raise their profile in this land they will care more about what is happening the world over. Bit like all causes, racism for example, once we recognise and accept that in EVERY country women have a raw deal and we see women as equals, we join the cause and the equality grows.

namechangeguy Thu 25-Oct-12 16:40:57

Posie, I can see how that works in democracies like those in the West. I don't know how a movement like feminism can directly affect dictatorships and theocracies. Unless you believe that Western governments are already supportive of the feminist cause, and are taking direct action within somewhere like Afghanistan and Iraq as a result of the feminist movement.

I guess what I am asking is, if we deal with these countries by speaking quietly and carrying a big stick, where or what is feminism's stick? Or is feminism just riding on the coattails of patriarchal governments?

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 16:52:50

At first I was thinking about how women fair worse over here and that this was an extreme example. Perhaps you've never heard about the massive leaps forward in the fight against FGM by Feminist groups in Africa or the progress in femicide in The Congo? Perhaps you can't see the work Feminism can do by making women important and worth saving? It's these attitudes and changes that can help girls all over the world.

zippey Thu 25-Oct-12 16:53:19

We live in a crazy world, but these countries will get there eventually. Remember that it wasnt all that long ago that Britian wouldnt allow women to vote. With the expansion of a free Internet, this should allow people to treat religion with skeptisiscm, and hail a free-er society.

Women have been badly treated in all societies, even here (last weeks equal pay scandal with Birmingham council for example) but give it another 100 years and these religious nuts will have died out.

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 16:54:05

I find your riding on the coattails comment rather twattish, what did you mean by it?

namechangeguy Thu 25-Oct-12 18:09:16

What I mean is, is it acceptable to use patriarchal governments to achieve feminist aims? Some feminists want to bring down patriarchal structures, as opposed to work within them for change. Do those feminists find it acceptable to allow a patriarchal government (ours) to topple another patriarchal government (e.g. the Taleban). Or do those feminists have a different way of approaching the problem?

What I am trying to get at here, probably rather clumsily, is how feminism does work in the 'real world'? Does it see all patriarchal structures as needing to be demolished, or does it accept that some of the patriarchal structures (e.g. Western governments) are in fact supportive of the feminist cause, rather than 'hating women', as I have read on here a few times.

I am hoping for a serious political discussion here, rather than any twattism. And for 'riding on the coattails', let's use 'realpolitik' instead. No offence intended.

namechangeguy Thu 25-Oct-12 18:12:54

Zippey, you wont get to rural Afghans via the internet for a while. Radio and BBC world service are a much better bet. But again, these structures are in the hands of men. What do you think would drive these high-powered, rich, powerful white males to help free peasant women in far-flung corners of the world?

EdithWeston Thu 25-Oct-12 18:13:08

The Taliban-related issue which has been tackled via structures associated with male power is the US-led invasion of Afghanistan which and led to an enormous increase in female education and in gender-blind health care.

Perhaps that is what is meant?

namechangeguy Thu 25-Oct-12 18:23:47

Pretty much, Edith, thank you. I am wondering how much this clashes with at least some feminist doctrine.

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 18:31:05

I guess until we don't have a patriarchy you have to work within it! I think patriarchy needs change from within, replacing ideals as opposed to a complete and instant change, which is unachievable.

I'm sure the plight of Pakistani school girls will have far reaching effects, they may inspire talk at the very least. The more girls see equality as a right the more pressure they will put upon their own government.

As both Feminism and the Patriarchy do not fit neatly into a box that we can tick, I am struggling to find the right language to describe what I mean.

I think, I think, that each individual that can change into a person that sees women as equal moves Feminism forward.

namechangeguy Thu 25-Oct-12 19:38:34

I do see what you are getting at, Posy. As Ghandi (the bastard!) said, 'what you do is insignificant, but you should do it anyway' (or words to that effect).

Is it therefore rocking the boat to suggest that there are rich, powerful white males at work in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, looking to raise the status and rights of women, to give them access to education, healthcare, voting rights etc., for no other reason than it is the right thing to do? Is that commonly accepted in feminist circles?

Xenia Thu 25-Oct-12 20:28:44

Many many men are feminist and work hard to help women. There is no reason you can't be male and feminist.

Pakistan has one of the lowest levels of adult literacy in the world I learned today. 55m of them over 10 cannot read. I am sure lack of education is one of their major problems. I wonder if the divided old India was actually a good thing / partition. Would the Muslims have been better being a small minority in a democratic India?

ConsiderCasey Thu 25-Oct-12 20:36:21

And why do those "rich, powerful white males" hold the progressive values they do, NCG?

Because they come from countries where feminists have already had an effect and managed to change the core values of many. That's why. Those men may or may not call themselves feminists but they've been affected by feminism for sure.

As for whether or not feminists should ride "on the coattails" of patriarchal systems - for fuck's sake, man, who gives a shit. I just want those poor girls protected and allowed an education.

ConsiderCasey Thu 25-Oct-12 20:37:46

"There is no reason you can't be male and feminist."

Exactly.

kim147 Thu 25-Oct-12 20:39:16

I heard a Pakistani journalist talking about this. It seems the Taliban are not the "biggest" problem with female education. Education is expensive and is paid for by the family. Essentially parents have a choice who to educate and it seems that boys are the ones who are more favoured to receive such an education - presumably because girls are expected to get married and raise a family.

Trekkie Thu 25-Oct-12 20:46:58

The taleban have burnt down girls schools though and attack female children going to school. It is a mutli faceted problem, isn't it? All of the reasons for the lack of female education need to be addressed.

I also don't understand why this issue should not be posted on the main board - I think it is useful for people to hear that these things are happening.

kim147 Thu 25-Oct-12 20:52:32

So many issues aren't there - it should be on the main board.

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