Mumsnet Talk

That's interesting. Is there a cat's chance in hell that they will include these points in the scope of the enquiry I wonder.

www.object.org.uk/component/content/article/3-news/151-object-turn-your-back-on-page-3-submission-to-the-leveson-inquiry

Good article, thanks for posting it. I hope the powers that be pay attention to it.

On Friday I posted the following on the Mumsnet FB page:
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On Tuesday, 4 women presented evidence to the Leveson enquiry of the endemic sexism in the tabloids. This document, showing how women are persistently depicted as no more than near-naked objects for titillation, was censored at the point of submission to the enquiry - the images deemed too offensive to be shown to a courtroom of adults. Yet all were taken from mainstream papers displayed at toddler eye-level in shops that any child can purchase. Such images could not legally be displayed in a workplace as it would constitute harassment, nor be shown on TV before 9pm. For me it is not that a pair of boobs is so obscene that it offends, but what this says about women and what girls should aspire to. The Page 3 girl is objectified, packaged up in an 'idol' competition, and then ridiculed in News in Briefs - as though a bird with her baps out could know anything about Aristotle! Why is Mumsnet not campaigning to fight this culture? Link to Turn Your Back on Page 3 fb page to follow with some others. http://www.object.org.uk/files/The%20Leveson%20Inquiry%20-%20OBJECT%20and%20Turn%20Your%20Back%20on%20Page%203%20Joint%20Submission.pdf
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I also posted links to the Turn Your Back on Page 3 FB page, an article by Clare Short about the vilification she received at the hands of the tabloids when she campaigned against Page 3, a link to a YT video by The Sun advertising Page 3 ('the woman you'd love your woman to be'), and a link to a superb article summarising the issues involved by Dr Petra Boynton.

I was braced for comments telling me I had no sense of humour, it's only a pair of norks, it's up to the women if they want to do it and none of my business, etc etc; what I was not prepared for was NOT ONE SINGLE COMMENT!! I simply do not understand why there isn't more outrage about the way that women are consistently presented in the tabloids, as nothing more than a collection of body parts for men's entertainment. The Object/TYBOP3 submission shows again and again how women are ridiculed and demeaned. Yet Leveson, charged with examining the 'culture and ethics' of the press, concluded the presentation by implying this was not within his remit to address.

Am I really the only person who doesn't want my daughter to grow up in a world where the media tells her that her most valuable asset is her bust? That the most she should aspire to ('page 3 idol') is to have strangers look at her naked form and consider whether or not they want to sleep with her? Or my son that a 'normal' heterosexual male treats women thus? Where women can't speak up against what they see as injustice without being told they are fat, jealous, lesbian, mingers with no sense of humour, who don't like sex?

Why is Mumsnet not campaigning for the Government to address this sexism directly if Leveson will not? I firmly believe that if any other 'group' were persistently depicted in such a negative way, e.g. through racism or homophobia, in the press there would be outrage. My MP seems indifferent, despite claiming to agree that the drift in society towards the sexualisation of women and young girls is not good. Come on Mumsnetters! Please can we speak out?

Can I ask you how you feel about the women that choose to do Page 3? And what effects it has on society?

MoreSpamThanGlam: I don't feel personal animosity towards her, though I'm sad she has been sold the idea that the route to female success is via male visual appreciation. There are so many other publications she could pursue a 'glamour' modeling career, why is this included in a family newspaper? As The Sun firmly targets itself, advertising Lego offers etc. If you read the Petra Boyton article in fact, she herself points out that the media pits girl on girl, when that should not be the issue. http://www.drpetra.co.uk/blog/page-3-at-40-a-cause-for-celebration/

(As a PS, for me, my main concern right now is not against porn in general, but the normalisation of the presentation of women in this way by Britain's biggest selling 'newspaper' along with other tabloids.)

People choose to do page 3 etc because it gets them something, validation, self confidence, money. it's natural to want to things. I would question why that's the way she can achieve them.
If being attractive was just one other talent, like singing or having a head for numbers then it wouldn't be an issue to 'show it off, why not?' - but it's not just another attribute for women, is it? It's massively over-weighted in our society, which causes harm to most of us.

Having reread your post, I guess I haven't answered fully (I wasn't sure if you meant the effects of Page 3 on society, or the effect of how people who share my feelings feel about Page 3 girls). Anyway, I think Page 3 (and in the Star and Sport, of course, it's not confined to Page 3) along with the consistently sexist portrayal of women in the tabloids, has a terribly detrimental effect on society. The message is being constantly reinforced that women are essentially ornamental creatures. The fact that as soon as a woman speaks up against this (on a comments board on the online Sun for example), she is roundly shouted down as jealous and someone no one wants to see with her tits out. As though these are the absolute worst things for a woman - to not be up to the job of being ogled. How can women participate as equals in society when the media constantly presents them as things for men to look at and judge - does she have a nice pair? Does she give you a hard on? Are the boobs too small/big? I appreciate that we regularly look at people we see and consider if we find them attractive or not, but the Page 3 girl is posed, lit and photographed as a blank canvas for this purpose alone. She has no other role. How is a man given that message about one woman not supposed to take it and apply it to all women? Furthermore, as I say above, the message is being given to boys that this is normal. This is what women are for. Young kids whose parents read the Sun at home can watch their dad have his cuppa and a good cop at some boobs, and what are they learning from that? I find it so bizarre that most porn (and yes this is 'soft' porn) is read in private away from the children, but not Page 3; which is read in front of the family, in public, anywhere. I say again, it isn't that I find the human body offensive, at all, but what it tells us about women. And of course it doesn't remotely celebrate the female form in its diversity: Page 3 are overwhelmingly white, all young, slim, with big boobs. What is this doing for women's self-esteem who don't fit that rigid category?

SinicalSanta: I agree. And in achieving that personal validation, it takes away freedom to live in a society of respect and equality for all women.

As an aside: I once made some sarky remarks about the Sun objectifying women on Twitter. I had 2 men who don't know me at all (not personally, nor what I look like) post, telling me I was jealous and must have been turned down for Page 3. One told me of course Page 3 isn't porn, the other that it is porn, which is why he likes it, along with the fact he'd had a knuckle-shuffle to the Freemans catalogue last night. Both of these posts immediately show that there must be something very deeply wrong here. That I point out an injustice and ridiculous assumptions/personal attacks are made against me that go straight to my physical appearance and my relationship with sex. It also interests me that they couldn't even agree between them whether it was porn or not! When I went to look at their profile pages, one had posted quite a lot about homophobia that he took issue with. Yet he was utterly blind to the very similar treatment being constantly visited upon 50% of the country, that he was perpetuating!

Wow. That is a lot of reading! I personally take issue with women that put themselves in magazines in a sexual position etc and then complain that men objectify them. I liken it to TV chefs complaining that people ask them for cooking tips. I also think it normalises the behaviour of men towards women, as you pointed out.

I have been hurled masses of abuse about this by a young "feminist'.

Are you talking about individuals MoreSpam? I haven't seen that, but it's possible it passed me by.

I personally am definitely in the 'complaining about objectification' camp while another woman might pose for a lads mag.

We're different individuals with different viewpoints (mine being the correct one, obv ) To think all women are feminists/all like being ogled/all basically the same is dehumanising really.

Sorry if that's not what you meant.

Video of Leveson Inquiry morning session, Tue 24 January. The women come on after the break at about 104 mins in, and their testimony lasts about 80 mins.

Heather Harvey references one of the unofficial MN surveys on rape and sexual assault...

It's not just the images and/or the tabloids that are the problem, the secondary position of women is so deeply engrained that it informs even the reporting of 'respectable' papers. When it comes to covering a murder, assault or rape - men are still portrayed as the actors with women as their ready victims. How can women ever hope to (re)claim their agency as well as their equal position, if they are constantly possessed/possessable in imagery and language?

I'm completely with you emcwill74, something needs to be done!

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alittlefeministblogonlanguage.blogspot.com/2011/12/private-property.html

Whoooppp! Come on Alittlefeminist! What can we do to persuade Mumsnetters to get on board with this?! Why is there such indifference?! I can vaguely understand people who don't ever look at the Sun thinking it's just a pair of boobs on Page 3, never mind, doesn't affect me; but when you read the Objcet/TYBOP3 submission you see it is SO much more, informing the presentation of every woman mentioned! And it really does have such a negative effect.

As an aside, something else that came out of the Leveson was how the culture under Brooks was no different. Reporters were encouraged to call women tarts, hookers and slappers at any opportunity, whilst blonde-haired women were 'beauties' and big-chested women 'looked swell'. This is what is disgusting! Not mammary glands in themselves!!

emcwill74 you seem to have joined just to campaign. Have a welcoming and , and maybe read some of what's already here. These subjects come up a lot in one form or another.

MN's a bit exhausted at the moment, I think, with the Welfare Reform Bill which is hitting a lot of families with disability or where people are escaping domestic violence, as well as low income families generally.

I'm sure there'll be more interest shortly: run things up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it.

Oh, and btw, I understand there's a board invasion from a bunch of knuckle-dragging adolescents at the mo, so there might be a lot of very ignorable baiting going on for a bit.

Thank Nilgiri - I've lurked around Mumsnet a bit for a while and probably have enough forums/social media to deal with right now to really post a lot here, so I won't deny I have joined because I wanted to raise these issues. If everyone says 'go away' I will! I'm not a spammer! (And I am a Mum to a 6 yr old boy and 8 yr old girl.) I appreciate the tea and biccie though (chcocolate shortcake please!) and also the heads up about the baiting. And yes, I have seen threads pertaining to these issues here before, and in all honesty that is why I posted on this one rather than create a new one.

I fully accept there are always a lot of issues worthy of a campaign and am not trying to say this outweighs any of them. As you say, perhaps it's worth my posting directly on the campaigns thread but in a while. I'd love to harness any desire for change that already exists but won't keep needlessly bumping threads if it doesn't. After the web chat with Evan Harris where this topic came up, and post-Leveson, I just really hope it does!!

Thanks again!

By all means bring it up again yourself! See you around.

I saw this and thought of this thread and of SGM (because of the Harvey Nicholls crap) and emcwill74 in particular.

[http://www.fem2pt0.com/2012/01/25/killer-advertising/]]

Link does not appear to have made it. I'll try again:

www.fem2pt0.com/2012/01/25/killer-advertising/

Interesting, thanks, hadn't seen that! I do agree that there are vile images in advertising that objectify women like this. I guess my starting point is Page 3, and working out through the rest of the tabloid press from there, because the Sun is the country's biggest selling paper and I think it ingrains this culture of disrespect for women very deeply in society to the point where people are utterly desensitised to it and see it as nothing more than a harmless British institution, a bit of fun. Did anyone see the Uniladmag furore on Twitter? Some pathetic male students making an online lads mag of the most offensive misogyny, including an article pretty much condoning (or rather, encouraging) rape. It was really heartening to see the utter contempt it was held in across the entire Twitterverse with as many men angry as women.

I'm not actually the creator of the TYBOP3 group by the way. I'm just a Mum whose parents had the Sun delivered as a teenager and hated it then. For years I did nothing but silently feel angry then when the hacking was first exposed I thought right! People don't like Murdoch and his sleazy press! This is the time to capitalise on that! I started writing emails to my MP and anyone and everyone and found the TYBOP3 page.

The woman who runs it and I have become good virtual friends and though I post there a lot and am in regular contact with her, I'm not here as any official lobbyist/spokesperson for them (by which I mean, I chose to post here, it's not a cynical exercise to gain numbers) - just an angry woman and mother trying to find more support wherever I can. I absolutely believe the key to getting rid of Page 3 and turning this culture of objectification round is to get one huge campaign going, supported by big guns such as Mumsnet, Girlguiding, the Mothers Union etc. The tabloids have shown how they respond to anyone who has spoken up in their bullying treatment (insults that go straight to physical appearance, of course) of Clare Short, Harriet Harman, Lynn Featherstone; but they couldn't do this to the nation's daughters and mothers if Girlguiding and MN got involved. And it follows on so obviously from the airbrushing body image campaign GG ran.

I do believe things will change one day. But how long must we wait simply to be treated as equals rather than pretty things to look at?

Good luck, emcwill74. Unfortunately, you'll probably be waiting a very long time. I thought we were getting somewhere in the 70s but The System swung into action and without a new generation of women to pursue progress it mostly withered on the vine. I can't bear the stupidity and vacuousness, the ignorance and the sheer lack of interest. It all makes me so angry I could scream, which is why I don't post here very often. There are a lot of really great women posting here, who manage to remain polite and reasonable and who try to explain stuff again and again and again. I can't do it. I want to call a fuckwit a fuckwit, but it's against the rules.