"ask what you think are silly Qs here and forkful will try to answer them in a polite helpful way by directing you to the resources she found useful and try to use persuasive arguments and

(174 Posts)
forkful Wed 13-Jul-11 22:42:40

*if anyone feels scared just shout*" THREAD

Sparked from the 700+ post thread. Honestly where is that thread going now confused. The people who hate women will be loving that thread.hmm

Lots of posters don't want to explain Feminist thinking all the time (fair enough - I don't always - but I try to provide useful links and book recommendations and write wordy posts trying to explain my point of view when I have the time/inclination).

So to all those who are scared/lurking - come and ask some questions! smile

LeninGrad Wed 13-Jul-11 22:45:27

Where are my keys?

WhatsWrongWithYou Wed 13-Jul-11 22:48:24

< Dredges up memories of feminist theory from renogade poly tutor circa 25 years ago >
< Fails >

Thanks for this thread - will follow with perplexed expression interest smile.

BrianAndHisBalls Wed 13-Jul-11 22:48:35

Ok, this one is a bit of a thorny issue, BUT... when I was younger my dad used to tell me not to 'go out dressed like that' because I could give men 'the wrong signals' and get raped hmm

Now I argued at the time that it was ridiculous etc etc BUT I think when my dd's are older I would want them going out wearing something less revealing.

So I know that its nothing to do with what a woman is wearing whether she gets attacked or not, I know men are capable of controlling themselves and a short skirt shouldn't/doesn't change that, I know it not the victim's fault its the rapists, I know rape isn't really about sex (although is that true of a non stranger rape as of a stranger rape?) but...

if it makes my dd NOT get attacked wearing trousers not a skirt, wouldn't I want her to wear trousers??

Aarghhhhhhhhhhhhh.... someone unmuddle my thinking!!!!

forkful Wed 13-Jul-11 22:57:43

<bear in mind that I am a newbie Feminist in relative terms but I just wanted to do something positive after all the kick-off threads>>

BrianAndHisBalls - IMO the messages you hear when younger - eg from your Dad go in very deep to your conscious and sub-conscious and are reinforced by popular culture. I really don't think that your dd would be more likely to be attached wearing a skirt and not trousers. You need to teach her that she is more likely to be attacked by a partner/friend than a stranger. sad

I am sure that you wouldn't want your dd to think that it was her fault if something happened to her so that's why I think that this is a bad message.

See the Scottish campaign - this is not an invitation to rape me

This is the Government's response to the Stern Review into rape - which provides some useful info/ideas not in the general press.

forkful Wed 13-Jul-11 22:58:32

Lenin - try the door or the fridge. grin

SybilBeddows Wed 13-Jul-11 22:59:22

'if it makes my dd NOT get attacked wearing trousers not a skirt, wouldn't I want her to wear trousers??'

yeah but it doesn't make her not get attacked. Rapists will often say in court 'she was wearing a short skirt your honour' (I paraphrase) because such an excuse is likely to be taken sympathetically, but it doesn't mean it was actually a factor.
the most common thing worn by women who get raped is jeans, for obvious reasons (ie that is the most common thing for women to wear).

I might be wrong, there might be actual evidence out there that you are more likely to get raped if you dress in a certain way, but I have never heard of it.

(I think what I'm trying to say is, never mind the FAULT, let's look at the causality: if there is no relation between dress and rape then it doesn't matter what she wears. If it turns out there is, I would certainly tell her to dress safely no matter how victim-blaming it sounded, because of COURSE you put your dd's safety above everything, but I have never seen any evidence there is an actual increased likelihood of rape if you dress in a particular way.)

that's my twopennorth, sorry if I'm treading on your toes forkful.

LeninGrad Wed 13-Jul-11 23:01:15

forkful, you're a genius grin

karmakameleon Wed 13-Jul-11 23:01:29

Brian, AnyFucker started a similar thread a little while back. Some of the responses may be helpful to you too.

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1216981-My-teenage-dd-and-the-clothes-she-wants-to-wear-help-me-out-please

karmakameleon Wed 13-Jul-11 23:01:48
forkful Wed 13-Jul-11 23:02:49

"sorry if I'm treading on your toes forkful" - gosh no not at all.

Obviously anyone can post/answer here but I've made an undertaking to try to address some of the recent criticisms and to spend some time being welcoming and answering questions and directing to resources/books and just sharing some of my Feminist journey.

<I am just thinking that in the Feeding section of MN people are always coming on asking for advice plus you get activism threads BFvFF fights all sorts of types of threads>

forkful Wed 13-Jul-11 23:04:40

look Lenin we feminists ^can^ be funny grin

justaminnit Wed 13-Jul-11 23:17:23

My father's only advice on that was not to wear my hair in a ponytail. He was in the police. He said rapists are attracted by the thought of grabbing the victim by the hair. I assume he was talking about stranger rape, as a known rapist wouldn't need to grab. He also said not to get a lift with a man I'd been flirting with. Nothing about short skirts.

justaminnit Wed 13-Jul-11 23:18:14

Sorry, I was off-topic.

forkful Wed 13-Jul-11 23:22:22

justaminnit - I think that the very fact that police officer's feel the need to give this type of advice is very sad. sad. Do you think that your father ever gave any advice to male relatives over what consent is etc? This is where with my feminist hat I try to give a different analysis - eg would he have said to a male relative "if a girl who has been flirting with you gets into a lift with you then don't assume that she is implying consent". Probably not but I get upset when I see restrictions being placed on what girls/women do couched in the form of "advice".

Does any of that make sense?

forkful Wed 13-Jul-11 23:23:48

See why can't you get in a lift with someone you've been flirting with - even snog them and then be safe to go home alone (if that's what you want).

justaminnit Wed 13-Jul-11 23:33:08

We should be able to flirt safely, and wear ponytails. He would have told my brother about consent, mainly to avoid any possible accusation. He was a policeman not a feminist!

Good idea for a thread forkful. I shall be back with my questions soon.

BrianAndHisBalls Thu 14-Jul-11 08:39:54

Thanks everyone. I think it is very true that the messages you get as a child stick. I think I know that dd's dress wouldn't have any effect at all but I still want her to dress in a sack just to be sure hmm Need to come to terms with it before she hits that age.

scottishmummy Thu 14-Jul-11 09:06:53

if there is recurrent theme of posters saying they avoid the feminist boards then that is a bit of a wake up call. certainly my experience of participating is that many previous feminist threads have been shouty, hectoring and overall unpleasant. maybe this does prevent some posters from participating,for fear of getting it wrong, or maybe don't feel knowledgeable enough to name theories and authors.there have been numerous threads about the feminist boards and the vibe (for want of a better word) they have is imo cliquey. Have seen people be rounded upon and bullied and belittled by the "what about the menz" or anti- feminist put-downs. not nice,at all.

Now do I have a question?Yes,No, Probably -let me think about it

ElephantsAndMiasmas Thu 14-Jul-11 11:00:54

Good idea for a thread, forkful.

<watches with interest>

<or would watch with interest if Threads I'm On was bloody working>

LRDTheFeministNutcase Thu 14-Jul-11 13:33:44

Ooh, yes - forkful, why the heck isn't Threads I'm On Working?

sad

SybilBeddows Thu 14-Jul-11 13:41:18

I think Justaminnit's ponytail story is fascinating because if the policeman was right it shows something that I have heard feminists suggest in the past, that lots of victims are picked simply because they are easy to attack. I have heard it argued that some rapists go for old ladies or young girls not because they are particularly sexually attracted to them but because they're physically less strong and easier to abuse, which goes with the whole thing about rape being about power and misogyny not sexual attraction.

Pagwatch Thu 14-Jul-11 13:41:36

Nice sentiment forkful smile

I don't really have any questions per se. I just want to post on issues as they get raised on threads and if I am saying something bumfuzzling, have it explained to me why my thinking could do with reviewing iyswim.

Besides I suspect we are all still debating lots of this stuff. No one has the answers or they would be like god or some other really great woman...

grin

SybilBeddows Thu 14-Jul-11 13:42:56

lol Pag

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