Do you ever feel like fighting against porn is a losing battle?

[neofeminist]

Because I do. :( DH and I have had it out on this issue after I found a few porn videos on the computer. I made it clear that I found it degrading and harmful to women, asked if he would want our DS stumbling upon it and thinking this was what adult sexuality was supposed to be like, asked if he would want our niece to see it and think this was what she was supposed to be as a woman, etc. At my demand request we watched the Hardcore documentary together, and he seemed appropriately horrified. I told him that it was very important to me that he not watch porn and he said he would not, both out of respect for my wishes and because he would never know if he was watching a woman be raped or not.

Anyway, I was looking at something on google the other day and saw something about "incognito windows" . I looked at a few of the articles about them and they were all "yeh, I use this so the wife won't find out about my porn wink wink" kind of thing. It really made me despair. I don't think DH is using the incognito windows or watching porn (though really I'd have no way of knowing, would I) but it just saddens me that it's so commonplace and almost expected of men.

I guess I don't even have a real question here, I just felt sad. :(

[neofeminist]

Oh...not sure why that posted twice.

[CheerfulYank]

Yes. Yes I do, sadly enough.

[MamaMary]

Yes, it feels like a losing battle because in one sense it is. Porn will never go away.

However, where the battle must be waged, imo, is the area of accessibility. Porn is far, far too easily accessible in today's world. Primarily on the internet, also to some extent on TV (e.g. music videos, but I guess that is another issue). Opt-in porn rather than opt-out-of-porn should be what we are fighting for. It's not as if internet service providers can't do this: they can.

[vesuvia]

neofeminist wrote - "incognito windows" . I looked at a few of the articles about them and they were all "yeh, I use this so the wife won't find out about my porn wink wink" kind of thing. It really made me despair. I don't think DH is using the incognito windows or watching porn (though really I'd have no way of knowing, would I)"

Private web browsing is also informally known in the computer security industry as "porn browsing mode". Porn users who try to conceal their actions can be found out because private browsing mode is actually not really private.

Supposedly hidden or deleted history of visits to porn websites is stored on the computer and can be found as outlined in articles such as www.securitynewsdaily.com/private-browsing-mode-not-really-that-private-0133/.

Admittedly such techniques are beyond the technical skills of most computer users but it can be done. That might make a deceitful porn user think twice.

[MillyR]

I think we are fighting a losing battle if we think that pornography will not be widely available on the internet.

I don't think we are fighting a losing battle if we think we can't have a huge number of men and women in society who think seeing porn images in public is unacceptable, who consider themselves personally viewing pornography as unacceptable, and who would consider somebody mentioning their viewing of pornography to others was socially unacceptable.

20 years ago, this was the attitude among the left wing people that I mixed with and lived with. It is tied in with attitudes to feminism and women in general. There don't seem to be as many men now who think that women's issues are and important political topic, or that the treatment of women is something that they should be thinking a lot about, and talking about. Dealing with the impact of pornography is only going to happen if more people start caring about feminism. So when we get debates where feminists like SGB defend pornography, I think we are all still heading in the same direction. If we are all working towards getting women's issues a higher profile, then we have the opportunity to lessen the impact of pornography.

The problem with attempting to deal with porn culture is that many non-feminists are trying to deal with it without caring about the position of women. So they hijack the debate and never actually deal with porn culture. The whole sexualisation of children thing has mostly now become a debate about restricting what females can wear at an even younger age. So it used to be that 17 year olds were told they were sending out the wrong messages and might be raped. Now people are saying that about 7 year olds, but little attention is being paid to the behaviour of adults participating in porn culture and how that causes problems for females of all ages.

We need more people to become feminists, and I do think that is happening.

[MillyR]

That should have read I don't think we are fighting a losing battle if we think we can have a huge number of...

[neofeminist]

That's good to hear Milly . I was lurking on the latest lapdancing thread and it just infuriates me that women who have an issue with this sort of thing are seen as prudish.

[cjel]

Thanks neo, I don't actually try to think about it day to day, but it does effect how I think of him sometimes!!! its crap really and I think the internet has made it seem normal. I found a mag once when we had small dcs and he drove for 3 miles to throw it in a bin at a motorway services so they wouldn't find it!!! Yet he still trys to justify it. What I find hard is the thinking that is is something we could enjoy together and that the girls involved are enjoying it and getting paid loads a s well. Its the whole attitude that it is normal harmless etc, but if it is so why do they hide it from us. I've actually said that I think of it as cheating on me any time he can have sex without me but he doesn't understand that either. thanks for the invite over by the way!!

[DilysPrice]

I think that people are always going to find watching or reading about sex exciting, that that desire is not intrisically wrong or sexist per se, and to fight against the selling any representation of sex is doomed.

I'd prefer a fight for "ethical" porn and representations of sex that does not objectify, abuse, exploit and degrade women, in an attempt to minimise harm. The current state of UK law and practice tends to militate against this - in that objectified pornographic images of women are much more readily obtained than images of heterosexual couples having consensual sex.

However I am aware that this may be an unrealistic ambition in real life - much like decriminalising drugs even the most ethical porn can lead to addiction, and issues of abuse and consent are still problems even in the highly regulated Californian industry.

[HerBeX]

Yes, until I shagged a 29 year old man, a member of the main target market of the pornographers, the ones who grew up with porn as wallpaper, who didn't watch it and didn't like it and said only 2 of his friends were regular users. Yes they've all seen it, yes they went through a phase of wanking over it when they were teenagers, but no, they haven't bought the image and fantasy of it and they haven't bought into the idea of women as less than human, they are intelligent enough to see through it and they didn't think it should be everywhere either; even the porn users were in favour of having a separate internet xxx section, or whatever the idea of an internet red-light district is. This particular bloke wasn't particularly bright or intellectual and he didn't have the first clue about feminism; but I came away from the liaison with him feeling slightly more optimistic about the next generation of men...

[HerBeX]

Dilys I think a fight for ethical porn can happen alongside the fight for the porn we've got (unethical, woman-hating, abusive) to stop. In fact I think it might be a good tack, because if you start couching it in those terms, it becomes impossible not to recognise that nearly all porn is unethical.

[somethingwitty82]

Sorry HerBeX but I have to say thats total BS,

He doesn't like looking at naked women? Only 2 of his friends were regular users ? No chance. No chance whatsoever.

[HerBeX]

He likes looking at naked women

Not porn

There is a difference.

HTH

[vesuvia]

Porn producers and users have deliberately tried to link pornography with freedom of speech.

I think it is worth repeating sakura?s recent comment :
?I'm always hmm when the words Freedom of Speech and Porn are mentioned in the same thread. What in the world has having someones dick up your arse, in exchange for money, got to do with talking??

Many, perhaps most, porn users believe that porn is always harmless and nobody is ever forced to participate. This belief is based on ignorance, denial, or a willingness to believe porn producers.

I think this belief could be challenged by attaching a warning message to pornographic material. It could be along the lines of :

?You have chosen to view pornography. Your actions could be directly facilitating the abuse of the people shown in this and other pornographic material. The producers of pornography claim that all the people appearing in pornography will have done so by their own free choice. You cannot verify those claims. The producers of this pornography could be lying to you. You may be about to view real abuse happening to real human beings. Do you wish to continue??

Such a warning message before pornography is accessed may help to increase the burden of justifying porn use to the porn producers and users.

A warning message rather than a complete block would avoid criticism that porn was being censored. A warning message would let everyone in society know that porn users were getting their kicks after they had been made aware that abuse might be occurring, but the porn user has explicitly chosen to ignore that possibility. That would reflect reality more accurately than the denial that abuse never occurs. It would challenge the faulty assumption that porn is always harmless fun.

How could pornographic material be identified? Pro-porn anti-censorship people think that accurately identifying pornography is impossible. Strange how porn producers and porn users do not have any difficulty identifying pornography. It is what they create and consume.

Is such a warning ever going to appear? Almost certainly not. I expect there will be cries of ?it?s impractical so let?s not even try.?

One of the rules of our patriarchal society is that porn producers and porn users must never be questioned or inconvenienced.

[somethingwitty82]

I would agree with the above as long as it is also applied to choclate RE: Slavery, Primark clothes RE: child/sweatshop labour and gems RE: Child soldiers and genocide

[HerBeX]

Why do you assume it isn't applied to those things you mention somethingwitty?

And why is the demand for basic human rights, only allowed for women, if everyone else gets theirs too?

Did you used to say about apartheid South Africa: "I'll only support the release of Nelson Mandela if all the political prisoners in China are released as well/ if the Palestinians get justice/ if any other abuse you care to name here is addressed first"? Do you say that you'll only "go along" with the struggle of the Syrian people if the Lybian one is dealt with too? Or do you just support struggles as and when they're needed, unless of course, it's the struggle of the half of humanity with wombs?

I love the way leftyboys always tell women that their struggle is not as important as everyone else's struggle.

Actually I don't.

[SybilBeddows]

'Only 2 of his friends were regular users ? No chance. No chance whatsoever.'

what are you Somethingwitty, some kind of manhater?

quite a lot of men wouldn't dream of using porn actually because they know what the industry is like and have some bloody ethics or simply don't get off on objectification.

[HerBeX]

All porn users like to try and convince other people, that all men use porn, because it validates their porn use.

Just like all rapists think all other men are rapists too.

And all alcoholics like to convince themselves that eveyrone drinks a bottle of vodka from time to time and people who don't, just don't know how to unwind...

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

So true, HerBeX.

My DH doesn't watch porn, never has. People seem extremely keen to disbelieve me/him on this issue, almost as if they would like to think he has some kind of memory lapses rather than accept - shock - that he doesn't do 'what all men do'.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

You also have to love the arrogance of certain people ... 'I know at least, oooh, O.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population and I can confidently prove based on my knowledge that all men watch porn.'

[mapleleef]

@ Neofeminist - No you're not prudish, you're pro love-making NOT pro bad sex or pro porn. I discovered that my DH had looked at porn about 4 times on the internet so I too had it out with him. I then proceeded to read all I could about porn and how it affects relationships. And we had further discussions/arguments about it. He said he had watched it out of curiosity and for titillation. He said he hadn't considered whether the women involved had consented or were being coerced. I explained how hurt I felt, how I lost respect for him for watching such acts that had no foreplay or mutual or equal lovemaking in them, how it felt like he had been committing adultery. After all, I don't see that there's much difference between watching porn on the net or inviting a couple around to your house and masturbating while you watch them have sex? Except that you could do it more clandestinely. Our reasonably happy outcome is that I've become much more articulate about how I feel about porn, he has agreed not to use it any more because it has upset me so much (he's not that computer savvy so I do believe him!) and we're joining forces as parents to educate our son not to have his sexuality hijacked by the porn industry. (Gail Dines' Pornland is a good start for reference.) There are plenty of men out there who are anti porn (check out the antipornmen.org website.) Good luck!

[jennyvstheworld]

I think this is yet another area where we need to address attitudes with education. In this case, I would say it would be helpful to encourage people to think of pornography as a drug (especially with the availability we now have on the internet). At one end of the scale it might be a little bit like caffeine - a light and enjoyable stimulant - but at the other end it can be pure Class A: the production makes unethical people rich, abuses the workers involved, attacks society and reduces the 'users' to hollowed-eyed wrecks.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

I think the idea of a Warning Label along the lines suggested above is only acceptable if used in conjunction with an Ethical Porn label ie those people who make ethical porn (non-coerced performers etc) being able to apply for some sort of certification. Because there are producers working to make stuff with willing performers and good values, and it seems to me to be unfair and wrong to make them label their work with 'Oh, I might be a liar, a criminal and a rapist actually'.
Quite a lot of people do like to look at sexually explicit entertainment material. This is not inherently wrong. Human beings like pictures, they like stories, they like fantasies. And it seems to me that fighting against the abuses that occur in the porn industry must include supporting or at least fucking acknowledging the producers and creators and artists who don't abuse other people. Otherwise you might as well just hang out with the anti-sex, anti-feminist nutters (and anti-porn campaigns are always hijacked by people whose agenda is not feminist at all).

[sakura]

A woman having sex for any other reason than sexual pleasure is a bit retrograde though isn't it. A bit Victorian , shall we say.

The only porn I would ever trust is porn where there was absolutely no profit being made by anyone, and even then you're skating on thin ice because of various psychological issues such as Stockholm syndrome, re-enacting rape or sexual abuse trauma in order to create a sense of control, coercion by a boyfriend etc. It really is a minefield.

Better to get people to find a more imaginative way to get their rocks off than risk even one woman slipping through the net.

One woman slipping through the net is, to me, one woman too many.

[Molasses]

Human beings like pictures/stories/fantasies.

Why can't all porn be drawn/written then?

I'm sure some men only get off on pornography that actually shows that a real woman is being actually penetrated, because it's that that gives them a sense of power.