BLW - Is it suitable for FF & how do you deal with nurseries?

[2plus2plus1]

I think I saw a suggestion recently that BLW isn't appropriate for A FF baby (I think it was a comment from a HV?). I couldn't see a reason why though. Can someone clarify this for me.

Also how do you deal with a baby in nursery. My nursery have told me that they prep (i.e. puree) baby food & freeze it as you would 'at home' - suggesting that they would expect us to follow 'the norm'. Does anyone know if nurseries support BLW & if not how I could encourage them to? Will talk to them next week when DD3 goes for an introductary visit.

At the moment DD3 is only 4 1/2 months & I am not planning to start yet. I am just trying to decide if I want to try BLW and think about the practical issues (like nurseries) ahead of time. I actually find feeding from a spoon quite therapeutic but with 5yr olds the idea of DD3 being 'independent' from the start appeals to me (as does being able to eat my food while it is hot).

Am off to look at some of the Blog now...

[wartywarthog]

well i know aitch f/f and she's doing blw. i think that gill rapley's paper states the research was done on b/f babies, so they've put in a caveat for ff, probably to protect themselves. that's my take on it anyway. plus b/f babies are used to being in control of feeding - they decide when to suck, when they're finished with a breast etc.

about the nursery thing, i don't know, but i'd have thought you're the customer, so surely they should at least make an effort to try? surely if they're cooking / preparing the food, they could just keep some aside for your dd? worst case is you could make her finger food in the morning and send it with her, but that would be a pain.

i'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will pop along soon.

[Mum2FunkyDude]

They also believe that b/f babies are more open to new tastes as breast milk changes every day. I think it should not really matter.

[2plus2plus1]

My worry with the nursery is that they are
a) not cooking for the babies every day & use previously frozen food
b) babies feed when it is appropriate for them rather than at 12:00 so they won't be able to offer her finger foods that would normally be given to the older children.

I know I need to talk to nursery, but I was wondering whether therewas any experience that I could use as 'case studies' if you like.

I know I have a whole lot more reading to do on this...

[aitch71]

if you can speak to the nursery in advance i can't see it would be a problem as you would just send in a banana, some cheese, some porridge pancakes, some steamed (cold) veggies, polenta, bread, sandwiches, some cooked chicken pieces or other meat... that sort of thing.

it must be easier for them as they don't have to pay a member of staff to spoonfeed. not all of those things, by the way... plus by 9 months-ish they'll probably be able to do a bit of self feeding with a spoon (my dd can ) so that means you can send in cottage cheese, thick soups etc.

there's a VERY interesting document posted by rachel on the comments section of the 'random thoughts' folder, looking at round robin feeding in nurseries which seems to support BLW.

as for the FF, i think it's based on the fact that the Rapley study was quite wee (it was for a Masters paper i think) and the idea of inuitively feeding your child goes along quite nicely with BFing.

In my (slightly irritated) opinion i think it's because everyone assumes that all formula feeders jam a bottle down their children's throats every four hours, rather than feeding them how much they want when they want, which was certainly the advice i'd been given. so they think that your child will have lost the ability to regulate what they drink or eat... and what? will just eat constantly til they blow up like a balloon? who knows? i did ask my docs and HV about it, they didn't know what i was talking about...

[aitch71]

oh, and definitely someone here has converted their nursery on BLW, i remember reading it around the time i started doing it with my dd. so probably about three months ago.

[2plus2plus1]

Thanks I will try the archives for the mystery 'someone who has converted their nursery'. As a FF I try not to force x oz down her throat at x time of the day. If she wants it she will have it. I am not fussed (so long as I can see she is healthy & obviously not anorexic!!!). In fact at the mo she rarely takes 2-3oz first thing in the morning & that is fine by me...

[aitch71]

perfect. so you are feeding on demand, which as far a i'm concerned is completely consistent with BLW.

good luck finding the previous thread...

[JennT]

Hi 2p2p1 My nursery were intrigued when I told them about it. The Aunties and other children are amazed at how much she eats....And so much easier for them too! Am impressed that babybear can spoonfeed herself! The bubs is a long way off that.

[aitch71]

only with the new kind of tommee tippee spoons the are kind of bent in the middle, and only since she got her pincer grip. it was weird... one day last week she just got the idea.

[wartywarthog]

sorry aitch - absolutely didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else forces ff down your lo's throat. i don't think that at all.

[aitch71]

tish and pish www, i didn't think you had... not for a minute

i have seen other people say that, though, during some of the more heated debates on here. i think everyone used to be told to feed on a four-hourly schedule, whether BF or FF, and it is probably taking longer to die out with FF. (if you look at the stats a lot of people's parents ff and in a lot of cases they will be the ones who advise first-time mums, therefore the habit continues.)

but the books I've read (apart from one i can think of, lol) tend to advocate FFing on demand nowadays, and the HVs should be doing as well so i reckon in that regard it's much the same as BFing and that is the bit that's relevant to BLW.

[wartywarthog]

phew

[2plus2plus1]

Thanks for that. I don't think I managed to find the thread you referred to. I got zero returned threads when I searched 'BLW' - so I don't think it is working properly.

'Wherethewildthingsare' posted 3 months ago, basically asking the same question as I am. Doesn't really give an outcome though & I don't recognise the name so I don't know if she is a current MNetter. Do you know if that was who you where thinking of?

Oh & demand feeding - I call it ruling the roost in this house (LOL!!!!)

[2plus2plus1]

Oh & the nursery issue is not that bad. She will only be going 3 mornings/week so we can certainly kick things off starting at tea time or mid afternoon.

[aitch71]

we only really give dd breakfast, snacky things and afternoon tea anyway, so that sounds about right. any food later than 4 or 5 and she won't drink more than a couple of ounces of bedtime bottle and so she wakes up hungry later.
leave a message for wherethewildthingsare... i've got a funny feeling she can't access mumsnet from work for any length of time, so she'll probably see it later. if she's not on holiday, that is. i might be able to contact her as well, so we can both find out.

[wherethewildthingsare]

2+2+1 - I'm here! I am working (restricted access) and have LO wailing at my feet (work at home) so I can't answer in detail but I promise I'll be back in a bit (when he's napping). It does work!

[wherethewildthingsare]

Sorry about that! I?ve been back in work a month now and LO attends nursery 3 days a week. We chose the nursery partly because dd was very happy there 5 years ago and partly because they have their own cook there every day ? although I know that?s not always an option in some areas. It?s quite small and has a lovely homely atmosphere, they don?t pretend it?s a school, the staff don?t wear uniform etc, they never advertise because they don?t have to. Another very smart nursery I looked at for a comparison just opened a cupboard full of jars when I mentioned food! Anyway, during his settlement visits I went in and had a good chat with his main carer, I also typed up a couple of pages on his ?routine? such as it is and some gentle instructions from me re: how to use cloth nappies, using a cup not a beaker for drinks and BLW! I dropped in ?I have been recommended by my HV?? for a bit of gravitas. I guess you could print out some of the FAQs on the BLW website/Aitch?s blog. To be honest I didn?t expect them to actually do it, I thought they would be muttering about me behind my back and shovelling spoonfuls in! But I was wrong, they are doing a marvellous job. Every week the cook puts up the weekly menu for the babies (mushed stuff) and another for toddlers (obviously with a lot of overlap). Every day they start with wholemeal toast at about 9.30. I am very impressed that he is following the toddler menu not the baby one still used by much older babies. I wasn?t expected to bring in any food at all for him luckily. With puree-fed babies they follow the lead of the mother regarding introduction of different foods but I said that I was quite happy for him to have whatever the older kids were having and to try anything and everything. They feed back to me through a diary so I know exactly how much he has drunk, eaten, slept etc which is really useful. They are very impressed with how much and how well he eats especially as he only got his first tooth today! (he?s nearly 8 months). He rarely gags which I suppose is reassuring for them, no more than a puree-fed baby (is that the politically correct term d?ya think?) I thought worry about choking would be an issue with them but I am pleased to say they have just got on with it. It must be much easier for them with my LO munching away whilst the other babies are spoonfed in a round robin! They do feed the smaller babies with older ones which again is good for them to watch the older children. I swear LO is very good at feeding himself because he sees my other 3 kids eating, it?s just totally natural for him. Now he?s older, if we are having something that needs a spoon eg shepherds pie, I load it and he flings it around and some of it ends up in his mouth!

This has turned into another massive missive (I pasted it from word?) but I hope it helps, feel free to ask anything at all.

[wherethewildthingsare]

BTW I think frozen food is better than jars/tins and I don't see why they couldn't give your babe the toddler food at a different time if necessary?

Re: formula feeds - LO has one bottle in nursery in the afternoon and water with his toast and lunch which he has 'led' if you like. I bf him at home. I think Aitch, the reasoning behind that caveat you see on BLW stuff is (you're right) to do with bf being baby led and ff not being (which of course it can be, but some people 'persuade' babes to finish a bottle thus overfeeding them), the point being that if a baby was thirsty they wouldn't have the thirst quenching foremilk, they'd have 'solid' formula which is always of the same composition. I recall seeing Gill Rapley or someone saying that unless you frequently offer water when you are weaning, a ff baby could be overfed (when they were just thirsty) or be dehydrated (because they don't take enough fluid). Of course if you understand that you won't let it happen (and obviously you won't Aitch!). I really don't think it's a judgemental thing about ff mothers! (please don't beat yourself up, we all do the best we can, I don't express because I just don't have the time or the energy with this baby) I have taken the approach of completely separating demand bf with 3 standard mealtimes so milk and solids are separate. I think offering too much ff does stop babies eating once they get over a year old.

[wherethewildthingsare]

This is the quote from the UNICEF paper by Gill Rapley re ff - I think she's just covering herself as said before, I think you girls can work it out by yourself without HV wisdom!

'Formula milk has the same consistency throughout the feed. If the formula-fed baby were to be given milk as his only fluid he would be at risk either of not getting enough fluid, or of consuming too many calories, or both. Parents who are implementing this method of introducing solids with a bottle-fed baby should therefore offer their baby water at regular intervals once he is seen to be eating small quantities of food. They are advised to consult their health care advisers on how this should be managed.'

I'm definitely going to do some work now!

[2plus2plus1]

Wow many thanks for your reply - its been really useful - given me some things top consider. I am trying to read some of the Blog but not getting too far at the moment (but thats why I am starting to prepare at 4 1/2 months not 6 months).

My 5yr old DTDs went down the 'puree' route and we were v v slow at introducing lumps - partly because they were v v premature (and so we were a bit over protective) and partly because we were using packets of baby food when using comercial products & the lumps tend to be smaller than jars so thats what I was following as a guidance in my home prepped stuff. I definately want to avoid that this time. They were very good at drinking from a beaker rather than bottle though. I dropped the bottles completely by 12 months which I intend to do again.

I understand what you are saying about making sure you give enough water. That would be one of my concerns as DD3 is not a massive milk drinker at the moment (probably less than 600ml most days) & I would worry about her getting a pint/day when she has water with food & the foodstuffs are not the sort that can be as easily mixed with milk (like pureed rice & vegs). She is quite small though (just 12lb at 4 1/2 months), so she may start to drink more as she gets a bit bigger. I'll have to give that one some thought...


I am hoping that my nursery will be co-operative. DTDs went there until 9months ago (although they didn't start as babies) and there was a bit of favouritism towards them from the manager - so I hope that may help me persuade them. They do have a full & part time cook - and don't use jars - they freeze their own purees. As aitch pointed out veges don't have to be hot - so I guess my concerns about her not being ready when the toddlers are doesn't matter. I guess the other concern would be the size of the nursery - it is quite large (70+) & there will be 9 babies in DD3s group - up to the age of 9ish months. If the worst comes to the worst we can get well on the track at home as she is only going for 3 mornings until she is at least 12 months old so if we get desperate we can avoid nursery having to give her solids - at least for a bit & then we can demonstrate her competence (hopefully).

The other thing that this thread has made me realise is that she needs to watch us eat more (although she is normally asleep at tea time so I don't know what I can do about that). I think I will try and get her a high chair sooner rather than later so she can at least get up the table with us to watch when she is awake.

As for getting support (or not) fr HV - no worries there - I havn't seen one since 6wks as thet are so short staffed in our area .

I will try & talk to nursery next Weds & let you know how I get on. Thanks for your reply - I hope you don't mind me quoting your 'case study' if I have proplems convincing them?

[aitch71]

www.ag.uidaho.edu/feeding/pdfs/2_1%20Erikson.pdf

i can't get this to work as a link so cut and paste it. a very clever woman posted it on my blog, didn't she wtwta? it looks at feeding in nurseries amongst other things.

[cazzybabs]

I don't really know much about BLW but at the nursery where the dds went/go they all try and have lunch at 12, but if some are asleep or aren't hungry they wait until they are. they are more than happy for them to try and feed themselves - makes the nn job easier!

[sunnybob]

This is the very first I have ever heard of blw and I manage a private nursery! So far no parents have mentioned that they are doing blw, if they were however, it would not be a problem...we treat all babies as individuals and do everything we can to respect and follow parents wishes.
As for me, I have a 21 week old dd and last week I stood and chopped, steamed, blended & froze 8 different types of fruit and veg, thinking I'm a very organised mam preparing for a (dreaded) return to work in November! I'm wondering now if I have wasted my time and should go down the blw route.
My dd was 5 weeks early...should this change the time I would start blw?

[aitch71]

hi sunnybob,
you can gauge their readiness on other things as well, such as their ability to sit up well by themselves. not to mention your own finely-honed maternal instincts.

that's the good thing about BLW, you can offer them food but if they don't pick it up and eat it they are actually telling you they aren't ready.

some babies take to it quickly (DD, only two weeks early, wolfed everything down in sight at 6 months bang on) whereas others seem to prefer to play with their food for a good few months. given that the idea is to feed them with milk and not freak them out with food, that's actually fine.

there are those who would interpret picking up and eating food as being a good sign that internally their gut is ready for food. it seems to make sense to me, especially when you consider how clever their bodies are in every other respect.

anyway, got to go and serve up a porridge pancake or three, don't worry about the purees - you can put them through pasta, make thick soups or spread them on toast if you decide to do BLW.

[sunnybob]

Thats great advice...thanks!