My dog might have PRA and go blind- any advice?

[ReRegRhonda]

I've just re regged here after hackergate on a new email, I have had helpful advice on this forum before and could do with some now.

We considered studding my Lhasa apso 20 months old due to his lineage etc. took him for a progressive retinal atrophy test as you do to ensure he was clear before studding. The vet told us his retinas are already really bad and he will be blind in the next 6-12 months . Obviously heartbroken as he is only so young. She's retesting him in 6 months to ensure it is a progressive atrophy and not just idiopathic.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to care for a blind dog properly? Or any experience with PRA? Particularly if your dog was diagnosed young.

Has anyone heard of ocu glo antioxidant supplements? I'm told they are good for slowing retinal atrophy but I don't know what's for the best.

Do I need to change his diet?

Thanks for the help.

[TrionicLettuce]

I can't help with regards to anything condition specific but I do have some experience of living with a blind dog.

DDog2 (who we got from a rescue as a puppy) developed hereditary cataracts very young and was blind by the time she was 2 years old. She did eventually have corrective surgery when she was 3 but we weren't able to do it immediately as we had to save up (conjunctivitis as a puppy meant her eyes were excluded on her insurance) so she lived for a good while with no sight at all.

She actually coped amazingly well and most people were incredibly shocked when they learned she couldn't see. She was still able to go on off leads walks in the country park she was most familiar with and had no problems running around like a sighted dog. She was also fine at home, we didn't move furniture around if we could help it. If we did need to move anything (or brought in something new) we made sure she knew it was there by leading her to it and encouraging her to explore it. She always caught on very quickly and never bumped into anything beyond what she does anyway as she's a bit of a clumsy oaf even now she can see!!

We taught her a few new commands like 'step' which alerted her to a single up or down step like a kerb and 'stairs' which told her there were multiple steps to go up or down. We also chatted away to her on off lead walks so she could always keep track of where we were.

One thing we did have to manage a bit more than when she could see was introductions to other dogs. We just made greetings a bit more controlled, so we'd make sure she knew there was a dog there before they were allowed to freely sniff each other.

Honestly, had she not been able to have surgery to improve her vision I don't think she'd have been bothered. She did brilliantly well and she was no harder to care for or manage than any other dog.

[Costacoffeeplease]

We had two blind dogs, both at the same time, one due to old age (he was pts last year at 17/18 - rescue dog so we didn't know his exact age) and another due to a brain tumour, diagnosed at 3, and she was also pts last year at 6.

They were both perfectly happy for the 3 years they were blind, we didn't have any problems with them bumping into furniture as they seemed to sense where things were, even if there was something new or different. You have to remember that for dogs, their senses of smell and hearing are much more important than their sight, so I wouldn't panic too much, you may not notice much difference at all

[ReRegRhonda]

Hi Trionic thanks for your reply. Really happy to hear your dog coped so well being blind, it inspires great confidence that my dog will cope. I hadn't thought of kerbs, stairs etc, I think I'll teach him commands now, as you did, before the atrophy progresses too far. Thanks for the idea :).

[ReRegRhonda]

Costa that's great to hear that your dogs coped. I'm hopeful that our little one will cope too! I think it's sad though because he likes to watch telly particularly if there's dogs on, or horses! And he really loves looking out of the front window or the car window when we are off out. I'm worried he will get bored or frustrated or depressed and have a bad life :(.

[MaitlandGirl]

Have you contacted the breeder to let them know what's happening? A good breeder will want to know and (hopefully) will be able to tell you if the parents tested clear or as carriers. You can also search the kennel club health database for the parents test results.

A blind dog (especially one so young) will adapt really well, but you might have some issues with fear biting - I'd contact local trainers and find one experienced with blind dogs to help you all make the transition as easy as possible.

Good luck with the repeat test.

[ReRegRhonda]

My ILs are the owner of the bitch who had my puppy's litter and we also are pally with the sire's owner. Both were tested gpra clear within a few months of the mating. Haven't told my ILs yet as they're away and we are unsure whether we should be contacting the sire's owner - do you think this is the right thing to do? We have begun contacting the other people who took a puppy from the same litter to let them know of the situation. Unfortunately due to the fact that there is no genetic test for gpra in lhasas as of yet, there's no way of knowing whether the parents or other puppies are carriers. They can only assess the retinas as affected or unaffected. If the breeding pair are unaffected at the time of mating there's nothing to say that they won't ever become as such. It's just sad that our boy has seemingly developed symptoms so soon.

The vet seemed to think she was wrong, according to dh, and has asked to reassess him in 6 months for disease progression as she disbelieved that his retinas could be so bad. I'm wondering if she thinks it's just an idiopathic retinopathy as opposed to the hereditary gpra. We are considering going for a second opinion with another vet to be honest, as we aren't sure of this vet's assessment.

Thanks for your comments. I suppose a lot of the reason I'm posting is because I'm so sad for my boy and really would like to talk to someone in a similar position.

[ReRegRhonda]

Also after reading that night vision goes first in gpra, we turned the lights as low as possible last night and had him follow something with his eyes and there was no indication that he couldn't see it; he followed it as well as he would in the day. Considering he's apparently 50% blind, this seems strange. I can't help but feel her assessment was wrong. He has absolutely shown no sign of vision loss whatsoever. This would have gone undetected if we weren't planning to stud him. Of course, the studding is inconsequential now, we just want our boy healthy and happy.

[ReRegRhonda]

One last thing I should clear up that I've gone from pra to gpra - I believe the g just stands for generalised. They're the same condition, just being lackadaisical with my acronyms

[MaitlandGirl]

Was it a general vet that did the testing or one of the BCA eye scheme vets?

[ReRegRhonda]

It was a bva eye panelist so she certainly knew what she was doing but we are still looking into a second opinion. A lot of it is denial I suppose

[JoffreyBaratheon]

I had a dog who went blind with Primary Lens Luxation, aged 4. It was in the time before you could test for it. The breeder had covered her arse as she'd given me all the leaflets etc the day I picked the dog up.

Not sure what your dog's condition is, but I guess the end result was the same so I can give you some advice on dealing with a blind dog...

My dog went blind in a matter of hours, which is common with PLL. In fact we got her to the vet's within the 72 hours' window of opportunity and so she had extensive surgery but ultimately, lost her vision.

At first she came home on a cocktail of 20 or so drugs. So may I had to make a timetable. That was very hard.

Then, there was adapting. She could no longer play (she had liked fetching balls, playing with little squeaky toys and cuddly toys). Walking her was very hard as we had to slowly build her confidence, over weeks then months. So at first, went places with no loud traffic or sudden noises; no kerbs or things to trip her, etc. And slowly built it up til she was confident to walk on a lead again. That is not as easy as it sounds and some dogs may never get there.

We had two dogs and playing with the other dog became fraught with difficulty too as they had always rough-housed, and suddenly she still wanted to play with him but the vet told us to restrain them - so now she wasn't let offlead if on a walk with him, as they'd have got giddy and she could have barged into something and hurt herself. Also, other dogs that didn't know her were noticeably more aggressive (blind = weird body language, possibly?)

She needed constant affection, physical proximity to me, and verbal reassurance that all was well. I was at home all day with her and worked on this, totally giving my time up to her for months on end, at the start. Luckily she had been trained to respond to verbal commands, so that didn't change.

Slowly, she adapted and ultimately was fine. But it was hard work.

A few years later I met a woman who had the same breed of dog who also got PLL but at a younger age - only 18 months. And she told me, she ended up having her much loved dog PTS as it became a nervous wreck when blind and simply couldn't adapt. So you should be aware that you have to give this dog your all.

[JoffreyBaratheon]

Oh I forgot - the vet also said she had to be walked on a harness, as walking with a lead on a collar can damage the eyes further. She also had to have her eye pressures checked, every now and again, for a number of years.

And by the time she was elderly, her insurance had rocketed to £125 per month - they recouped every penny her op cost, in other words.

[ReRegRhonda]

Joffrey, really sorry to hear your dog went blind so suddenly. Apparently lhasas adapt well to their blindness as it is a gradual decline in vision so in theory he should cope well. He has a good routine of walks feeds bedtime etc so he should be ok in that respect. Thanks for the tip about the harness, I hadnt considered that. He has several verbal commands so hopefully they will prevail into his blind years!

[daisydotandgertie]

If it was an eye panelist, you're unlikely to get a massively different opinion if you go back for a retest, but I understand why you feel you need to.

I have no direct experience of PRA but am a breeder whose breed has the disease so am aware of how it passes from generation to generation.

As I understand it, it's a recessive gene and genetically, dogs can be either clear, affected or carriers. If two dogs are bred who are any combination of affected or carrier then the puppies in the litter will be either affected or carrier.

It is really unfortunate that your breed is one of the few who apparently don't have a genetic test because that means you have no choice but rely on an annual eye test which only tells you whether the disease is showing symptoms on that particular day. That's why it's an annual test.

You really must talk to the owner of both the dam and sire. Their dogs must be either carrier or affected in order to have produced an affected puppy and without a genetic test should, in my view, never be bred from again.

In this circumstance, I would buy another dog - you have enough time for them to bond and allow your pup to learn use the other dog as their eyes. It usually works really well.

[ReRegRhonda]

Thanks daisy. I would love to get a new dog but with a new baby currently as well as my boisterous pup I don't think I'd have the time to train it properly and give it the love and attention it would need so it wouldn't be fair on the new dog.

I definitely agree we need to contact the dame and sire's owners. The dame will never be bred again, we know this as its dh's parents dog and they have no plans to breed her again. However I'm a bit torn about contacting the sire's owner - shall I contact her now, even if the diagnosis changes in 6 months time at the retest? Or wait until it is confirmed? I feel weirdly guilty about it too as breeding from this dog is her livelihood and obviously she has no idea he is a carrier of this gene. On the KC website it looks as though his last gpra test was 2013. Shall I contact her now or in 6 months?

[TrionicLettuce]

I would absolutely contact her now. Any decent stud dog owner would want to know immediately.

[daisydotandgertie]

Yes. You really must tell her now. If an eye panellist is concerned enough to raise it, you need to show the owner of the sire a copy of the eye certificate you will have been given.

She really shouldn't put this dog to stud again without being able to be absolutely certain that any potential bitch is clear of the gene. There is a research project - details of which are here intlac.org/news.php although I expect you already know about it.

It would be interesting to go onto mykc and look at his progeny and see how many of them have been tested and what the results are - same with the dam. I'm sort of hoping he isn't a widely used stud; if he is, he will have passed his genetic makeup on to many, many puppies. There's a list of known carriers here intlac.org/praped/knowncarriers.pdf

[ReRegRhonda]

the panellist held off on the eye cert until the next test in 6 months as she was unsure what to call his retina damage, she had a hard time believing it was pra in such a young dog. As much as I'm hoping it's not, as you say it's unlikely an eye panellist would get this wrong regardless of the rarity of the disease in an animal my dog's age.

Thanks for helping me decide - I will try and contact her today and let her know what's happening. She clearly mustn't know her dog is a carrier. I will have a look at those links too, thanks daisy.

[ReRegRhonda]

Oh god, I can see dogs in my dogs lineage on that list that are carriers :(

[daisydotandgertie]

I am sorry. You must be so worried.

The trouble with PRA usually showing its head as a dog ages means it's entirely possible that the sire or dam are not just carriers, but are affected and not yet showing. This has reminded me how lucky we are to have a genetic test in my breed - I think I might have started to take it for granted a bit.

I really would consider a second dog - I hear what you're saying about your circumstances, but a companion dog would make the world of difference to your young dog in the long run. if your family are involved in the breed, maybe there might be an older dog who needs a new home?

[ReRegRhonda]

You're right, I have to seriously consider a second dog. I would absolutely LOVE a second dog, me and my husband have always planned for a second dog, but we weren't going to get one for a few years until the baby is a bit older and the dog we have now was past the boisterous puppy stage. That's another thing, current dog is still in tact so he may need to be neutered now :(.

This is the message I am going to send. Does it sound ok?

Hi there. My dog is 20 months old and was sired by your dog [dogs name]. Unfortunately, my dog has just been given a GPRA diagnosis, to be confirmed by a second eye test in 6 months. This means that [dogs name], along with the bitch who was the dam for my dog, are carriers of the gpra gene and possibly affected. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, I thought it would be best to inform both you and the dam's owner now so that you are aware, however I will contact you again in 6 months when the diagnosis is confirmed and the eye certificate has been issued by the eye panellist. thanks, [my name].

Maybe I should say she can feel free to call me if she wants to talk?

[ReRegRhonda]

Wow. She was not happy with me. She argued with me. I wish I'd not got in touch now

[Costacoffeeplease]

That's a shame, but it's tough really, not really the reaction of a serious breeder and dog lover though. Is she going to carry on using him as a stud?

[TrionicLettuce]

Is she a member of the breed club? If so I'd be contacting them as well, if she's still planning to breed from him then she'll be in direct violation of their code of ethics.

[ReRegRhonda]

I don't think they are. They stopped texting back. I can't find the dog's kc name on kc registered breeders page. I am furious now because they will continue to breed from this dog and cause many puppies to have this problem like my poor boy