My dog attacked another dog and in the melee the owner fell and got bitten. Nightmare.

[cq]

It's a long story but I was out on a mercy mission with a litter of stray puppies. DH & 2DCs were at home with our 2 dogs and a foster dog who has been with us since September. And 2 kids friends. While I was out, mother of one of the visitors came to pick her up and came to the door with her dog, who she though would like to meet the puppies. My son (13) opened the door, holding onto one dog, when they all spotted the visiting dog, pushed past DS and attacked the dog. Owner bent down to pick it up, stumbled backwards and fell, and while on the floor, holding the dog, one of my dogs carried on trying to attack it and bit her arm severely enough to need stitches. DH got to the scene as fast as he could and beat them all off, shut them away, did first aid etc. Everyone in shock. I am devastated. So many things all went wrong - DS should not have opened door with dogs loose, friend should not have brought her dog to my door without asking first, but the bottom line is suddenly my dogs were like a pack of vicious animals and I don't know if I can ever trust them again. I know which one is the main culprit - she is a bit stressy and has leash aggression at times, but she would never ever attack a human. But now I have a dog who has badly bitten someone. I am seriously considering if I should have her put down. How can I be sure this won't happen again? I can train them to go the other way when the doorbell rings, I can shut them away, but I will always fear it happening again. I am so sad. Feeling sick. Not sure what I want anyone to say but I need some impartial advice from someone who is not involved. :(

[SilentBoob]

Oh blimey, what a mess.

I have to say in your position I would be feeling pretty angry with my friend for bringing a dog to the door - unless she is a great friend and your dogs often socialise together. I would never turn up at a doggy house with my dog unless I absolutely knew it was okay to do so, especially a house that fosters dogs so may have new dogs around.

Very bad of your dog to have bitten her though :( I have always believed that a dog bite is something of a precision instrument; if a dog bites it is because he meant to. Perhaps I am wrong about that, am sure someone will correct me if so.

Can't really offer any advice. There are so many variables.
What is your friend's feelings about the matter?
What is your gut feeling about your dog?
Are you absolutely confident you can prevent it happening again?

[cq]

Yep, what a mess. You're right Silent, I am angry that she brought the dog to my door - she's just not very dog-savvy. She said today, she thought my dogs were friendly because I am always fostering dogs and so she brought her dog for some social contact. Doh. I tried to explain that I always introduce them on neutral territory, closely supervise them for days and don't leave them alone together for weeks.

But the bottom line is that my dog bit her while blindly attacking her dog. If she meant to bite her in order to get to the dog that's even more worrying.

Friend is ok today - took her some flowers, she's a bit shaken up still but is not going to take it further. I have been expecting a knock at the door all day from Animal COntrol (we're in the US).

Can I prevent it happening again? That's what's torturing me. I am going to see my dog trainer tomorrow, she's a brutally practical lady who will put it in perspective. I'm probably going to get a kicking for my badly behaved dogs and lack of control. But I need to know whether there is any hope for this dog. Although I foster rescue dogs, I am not a bleeding heart who thinks every dog should live, no matter what its problems, because if there is a risk of this happening again, or worse, then I will always put people first.

Need to get processes in place with the whole family for what happens when the doorbell rings etc. Or the dogs are going to spend a whole lot more time in their crates.

[lisad123]

Have they ever attacked another dog before?
I walk with a friend and her 3 dogs, and had been for weeks. There was another friend that joined us for a walk. Her dog was known to be aggressive but also had walk with friend and her 3 previously with no problems. She let said dog off lead, he attacked my dog and the other 3 joined in! My boy just lay there while 4 dogs attacked him. He was ok, his a big dog. Dogs act differently together than they would alone. Could it be the new dog has offset the balance??
I think in all seriousness, if my dog attacked anyone at all I would have to seriously consdier whether it was safe to keep him :(

[BlackCatsAndPurpleDogs]

I believe your dog did not intend to bite woman, just as you say, blindly attacking. Its like you diving into the melee with a stick to break it up and hitting woman on hand/arm - not intentional, just got in the way?

thank goodness the woman is not taking it further, nor should she.

Do your dogs see you as pack leader and your ds as submissive? I feel this is the problem. Strange dog had pack leader with it, yours did not?

[readyveg]

It was a disaster but no reason to think it will be repeated. Sometimes we forget that they are dogs and that their response to new dogs or situations can be dramatic. You had a really bad combination of factors and they conspired to create a huge flash point. Once dogs have started with aggression whether motivated by fear or territory concerns they can't just switch off their huge response.

I was bit by one of my prickly ladies who was snapping at another dog, I got a leg nip separating two fighters. Neither incident counted for anything... We all went back to normal and reassessed what was going on. Your friend was an idiot! It doesn't make you feel better BUT the circumstances that led to it are very controllable.

A friend was recently attacked by a dogue de Bordeaux, he missed the beware of the dog sign and number to call before sauntering onto the property. The dog went through his coat, jumper, skin and muscle on his arm. Ten minutes later after formal introductions whilst waiting for a lift to hospital it was sat at his feet as he gave it a rueful pat. I think most dogs can bite given the right circumstances, your incident was awful but of course there is hope for your dog.

[readyveg]

Oh my friend didn't do anything either, his fault. The dog had never met anyone at his house not presented by his owners!

[GrimmaTheNome]

My house has an inner door and we always make sure the dog is shut behind that before we open the outer door to a stranger. I highly recommend this if its physically possible. My current dog isn't aggressive but very noisy and liable to rush out and be a nuisance otherwise - the door makes life a lot easier.

The front door is probably about the most challenging place to be a dog owner. My previous dog did once get out when DB brought their dog - which mine had met at their house and was friendly with there - dashed straight for the poor little chap's throat (dachshund versus King Charles spaniel, fortunately, so easy to break up). After that I wouldn't be inclined to trust any dog to behave if another dog came to the door - it really was daft of your friend to invade your dogs' territory with hers.

[daisydotandgertie]

A awful feeling to have, when a dog does something unexpected and threatening. But, I'd guess the root of the problem is the stress aggression/fear which that dog suffers from.

If it were mine, I'd look past this particular issue which I don't think sounds intentional or aggressive to humans. The situation was created by a thoughtless teenager and an even more thoughtless dog unaware adult. Not ideal, but IMO not yet a disaster.

The dog needs a great deal of support to get past the nervous aggression; all other measures suggested mask the problem, or prevent the situation from occurring again (inner doors, shutting away etc) which of course is sensible in the short term, but doesn't address the root cause.

I have no doubt an objective input from your trainer and a lot of work on your behalf will give a very good chance of eliminating the behaviour. I hope it does. It would be unacceptable for it to happen again.

[Ephiny]

It's an awful thing to happen, but I agree with you that the main thing you need to focus on is having a safe 'routine' for opening the door without the dogs being able to rush out, and everyone in the household needs to know about this and stick to it. It's for your dogs' safety as much as anything. All very well to say the lady shouldn't have brought her dog to the door, and maybe that's true, but these unexpected things do happen!

Definitely wouldn't be even thinking about having the poor dog put down over this, it's clear surely that the bite to the other owner was an accident? Unfortunately that's a very common way people get bitten, trying to break up dog fights or 'rescue' their dog, it doesn't mean the dog is aggressive or dangerous to people in general.

[cq]

Thanks all, some sound advice here.

Daisy, you are right, I need to put procedures and training in place but also to address the underlying fear/anxiety this dog has.

Your last sentence is what I am torturing myself over "It would be unacceptable for it to happen again " I just don't know how I can be sure it never will. I just took them out for a walk and she's definitely more jumpy today.

I think we have a long journey ahead of us. I will let you know what the trainer says.

[minimuu]

cq what a scary thing to have happened, I can imagine your shock and all the what if scenarios running through your head.

There is loads you can easily do to prevent this from happening again. You must have faith that you are more than capable to deal with this situation. You have loads of dog experience and your dogs are lucky to have you

I am glad you can get advice and encouragement from your trainer - it is much easier to see the situation when you are not so emotional involved which is what your trainer should be able to do.

Working on your dogs fear issues will take time but can be changed and managed. I doubt you will ever have a dog that is completely stress free but between you - you will be able to work out what is too difficult for your dog and what you can both tolerate.

If you see it from the dogs point of view it was a real what I would call flash pan situation and again one that can be so easily avoided.

Take some time and some big breaths and advice from professionals (unless they say your dog cannot be helped which is bollocks!) - many people live very happily and easily with reactive once they have worked out a few management techniques.

Do yell if I can help in anyway

[elvisaintdead]

I would be very concered especially as you have DC in the house - what if it is one of them or one of their friends next time, especially if you then had to explain why your dog has form and you didn't take any action the first time.

My BIL dog bit him during a bit of friendly banter between him and his wife - the dog was defending the wife I guess but they have DC and couldn't take the risk

[MrsZoidberg]

I don't think your comments are very helpful Elvis.

The dog has issues with other dogs and not people, the friend was bitten becuase she lifted her dog up.

Minimuu is perfectly correct, with management, this will never happen again. We have 2 reactive dogs, one of which cannot be in the same room as our third. If we ever make a mistake, at least one dog will be severely injured. We just don't make mistakes. We use dog gates to keep all under control.

Also, from the op I'm not convinced that any of CQ's dogs are aggressive - if a strange dog invaded our territory even my most laid back GSD would attack, and yet he never showed any dog aggression outside.

Also was it an attack? Mine bundle quite a bit, and I've stupidly put my hand in the way and got bitten before now. Without seeing exactly what happened it would be impossible to now say.

My advice would be to do nothing for a few days until everyone, and the dogs, have all settled back down. Then ask the trainer for advice. The trainer should be able to use stooge dogs to see if there really is a dog aggression issue.

CQ, how old is your other DC? The 13 yo should definately be able to understand and follow any management techniques you put in place, but what about your other one?

[3cutedarlings]

Thats a load of shite elvis this dog went for the dog and the woman got caught in the cross fire, its far from unusual.

[elvisaintdead]

Not helpful why? Because I don't agree with everyone else? You are entitled to your opinion and I will stand by mine. The OP will do what she wants to do anyway

[AThingInYourLife]

I can't believe how complacent you all are that a dog you've never met isn't aggressive when the dog severely bit a human in blind attack mode.

At least the OP is concerned that her dog is dangerous, as she should be.

[ANTagony]

I'd be concerned about other random callers with dogs. Someone dropping leaflets, the paper boy, another child calling for one of yours.

As a child I used to walk other peoples dogs whilst doing paper rounds with friends. I wasn't very familiar of dog behaviour - whilst responsible enough to walk them and cross roads pick up after them etc I would have probably picked up a dog if I thought another dog was going for it.

Do you have a good friend/ acquaintance with a dog yours don't know that you could experiment with coming to the door - to play through different scenarios and see how everyone copes (including your family if its sprung on them)?

[readyveg]

It bit a human in the way of a dog fight,a common way people get bitten. Very different from a dog that is attacking humans. Dogs can be super reactive to other dogs without this making them more likely to bite people.

[cq]

Elvis has a point in that if anything does happen again, my dog does now have 'form' and I could be in serious trouble.

So what I have to do is to make sure I take all the right steps to make sure this NEVER happens again. Just not sure what those steps are right now.

DS is 13 and DD nearly 11 so both old enough to get involved in any retraining and new procedures. DS was traumatised by the whole affair and was in tears on and off all the rest of the day. He has promised to help do anything to help Rosie's rehabilitation. He's terrified she's going to be taken away and thinks it's all his fault, poor lad.

Short term, we already have new rules in place. If we are expecting visitors, the dogs are in their crates. If the doorbell rings unannounced, and the dogs get there first, I have a leash tied to the bannister at the bottom of the stairs. Rosie gets put on the leash before the door is answered. Other dog is small enough to be held by all the family and foster dog has just had a hip operation so is not a threat to anyone right now.

In a few days when we have all calmed down a bit, I will ask random friends to come by and ring the doorbell and I will start working on clicker training not to react to the doorbell at all. Or to run and put herself to bed when the doorbell goes. Need to work this out with the trainer.

DS been off sick today and yesterday so can't get to the trainer just yet - don't want to have frank conversation about the dog in front of her, in case the outcome is not good. Probably no bad thing to lay low for a bit.

I am still convinced Rosie would never hurt a human - she's an affectionate golden lab, we rescued her nearly 2 years ago and she's never even growled at anyone. She is also very playful with other dogs and when we meet dogs off-leash out on walks, she's very polite and then runs around with them. It's only (up to now) on-leash that she has ever shown any aggression, and then only if the other dog starts kicking off. I cannot say for sure what set her off on Sunday as I wasn't here, but I think she was possibly stressed because of the puppies being here (although they were in the garage, she knew they were there) and because I wasn't here. DS says one of them woofed and then all hell broke out, but he can't be sure who barked first. Could have been the dippy foster dog, she's a bit vocal but harmless, but one woof was just the trigger.

DH has also rightly pointed out that I will never be able to let her off-leash again on walks, as we just can't trust her now. So sad, she loves her long long runs. :(

[TheMonster]

We have two volatile dogs. They had a fight with each other the other week and I got bitten separating them. It was quite bad and I had to go to hospital and lost two days off work.
However, the dog did not got FOR me - he was going for the other dog. Because of this, I don't think it's necessary to have him put down.
We can't let our off their leads on walks. We can't even walk them together. It doesn't warrant them being put down though.

[BlackCatsAndPurpleDogs]

You Can let her off the lead to run! Just buy a soft muzzle for her!

[girliefriend]

Disclaimer I do not own a dog but I do like them!!

If it was me who had got bitten and I needed stitches I would expect you to go to the vet with the dog and discuss the pros and cons and pref have the dog put down. You can't guarentee it won't happen again, what if next time its a child or it kills another dog?

I wouldn't want that on my conscience

[TheMonster]

[MmeLindor.]

Such a horrible situation for you to be in.

I don't agree with those who say that you can be certain that this will never happen again. Even with all the training and precautions put into place, you will never be able to 100% trust her.

Not to say that she should be put down but I don't think that glossing over it as a mistake of your friend is right (and I understand that you aren't doing this).

You are handling this well, not rushing into things but considering all the options.

Has it perhaps been unsettling for her to have foster dogs and puppies in the house? How often do you foster?

If you do decide that you have to put her down, could you wait a couple of weeks so that your DS doesn't feel that it is because of him. I would even go so far as to lie about her getting ill, he must be feeling really terrible about it. Poor little lad, what a hard lesson to learn.

[minimuu]

Cq did you say there were puppies about?

You will be able to have her offlead again - she can be muzzled and you can monitor how she is out and about over time without her being a danger to anyone or dog.

Re the door bell train all your dogs to go to their crate dead easy to do with a clicker and a hungry lab! Feed her meals that way by training for a day or two - she will get the hang of it really quickly.

There is a way to sort this - don't despair