Can someone please clarify this pack thing to me?

[MotherJack]

Here's where I am.... 12 years ago when I first got a dog, being the "pack leader" was in all the books and anyone you ever spoke to.

I have subsequently learned that this is now dismissed, which is great - my dog always slept on my bed anyway and behaved no differently, so makes a whole lot of sense to me. Looking back, I realise he was essentially my boy and I gave him some boundaries.

What I am unsure of is the accepted view of how dogs are with each other. What is it that they do? Do they still have "pack" culture and if not what is it? Do they just get on with some and not others, like humans do?? Are two dogs of the same age and gender always going to have one looking to be higher in status?? Or something completely different? (not in a Monty Python way )

Thanks!

[MothershipG]

If your interested I'd recommend reading Jean Donaldson's "the Culture Clash", just reading it myself, great book on dog behaviour.

[MothershipG]

Argh!!! you're not your!!! I do know the difference, really I do!

[MotherJack]

Lol!

I shall have a look for that - thanks MothershipG

[CalamityKate]

"The Culture Clash" is a fantastic book.

[LetThereBeCupcakes]

Another Jean Donaldson fan here too! Barry Eaton is another good one. But basically most modern behaviourists and trainers dismiss the idea. My dog sleeps on the bed too :)

[MotherJack]

I shall definitely buy that book then. Thank you for the recommendation, everyone

[MotherJack]

PS.. Cupcakes.... do you ever wake up on cold nights and realise the dog has snuck in under the duvet?

[chickchickchicken]

two of my dogs sleep with their bodies under the duvet and their heads on the pillow

[MotherJack]

Ah, good - not just me then, Chicken .

[midlandsmumof4]

. Make our bed every morning before I go to work. Come home to think something untoward may have been going on,pillows and duvet all mussed up. Have two male rottys. They take it in turns to sleep on our bed whilst we're out. Clever puppies.

[Joolyjoolyjoo]

I think dogs do have an interesting dynamic between themselves. There does often seem to be a "dominant" one (and by that I don't mean aggressive or anything) I have 2 dogs. Old boy was here first, and to put it nicely, he is the dog equivalent of Forrest Gump! As soon as witchy-dog entered the house, she made it clear he was her subordinate, and he was happy to accept that. I notice little nuances in their body language and behaviour which show this subtly all the time, although there has never been any aggro between them- probably because he has been so accepting of his place (poor boy!)

Even among the dogs that we regularly walk with at the park, there seems to be differences in behaviour towards each other. it's really interesting to watch.

[midlandsmumof4]

Out of our two Zak is the oldest. They got on really well when they first got together. However, we're experiencing some competition with them now as they are getting older..

[LetThereBeCupcakes]

MotherJack - Yes. Frequently.

[MotherJack]

I'm now looking after someone else's dog (as of yesterday afternoon), and so have my very own canine version of Little and Large once more. Both of them were under the duvet when I woke up this morning. It's getting a little, hmm, shall we say cosy???

[MotherJack]

lol at the dog equivalent of Forrest Gump!

[CalamityKate]

Jooly I totally agree.

The way behaviourists often explain it is that dominance is a relationship between two individual dogs, rather than a character trait. So for instance, a dog could well appear to be dominant over the dog it lives with, but not with EVERY dog it meets.

Also, "dominance" appears to be a fluid and constantly changing thing, according to different situations; you might find that if you live with two dogs, one always seems to be "top" around the house, whereas if they go out for walks, the other one may well be the one who goes out in front/gets to eat the rotting hedgehog first etc.

Those are the reasons I think why labelling a particular dog "Dominant" is a mistake. Quite apart from the main point, which is that if dominance DOES exist, it is only between members of the same species - dogs do NOT try to dominate humans or other animals.

I also think that if, say, you've got two dogs and one does seem to be "boss" of the other, it's almost easier. You know what you're dealing with. My two are fairly even in that regard - sometimes Boo will take a bone/chew off Jessie, sometimes Jessie will take the item off Boo. Which is nice, but on the rare occasions they DO scuffle, neither seems to back down and in fact I have to be very careful when there are high value items up for grabs; if I don't make sure each has the same, I risk what could be a nastier scuffle than if one was constantly deferring to the other, iyswim.

[midori1999]

I agree that 'dominance' between dogs seems to be a fluid and always changing thing, which makes me wonder if it is actually dominance at all in the way most people see it, or simply that one dog wants something more than another in certain situations or that one dog is more confident in certain situations. Equally, some dogs are more tolerant than others.

Certainly with my dogs, they don't really fit the sterotypes of one being the dominant dog or 'pack leader'. In fact, the one that is absolutely the most submissive in all situations does most of the things that pack theorists would say make her the 'pack leader'. She always goes out the door first if I let the dogs out to toilet, she will take bones from the others and they let her, but if they were to challenge her she would immediately back down and I tend to think these things are more simply behaviour related than dominance related.

[chickchickchicken]

i have 3 dogs. the oldest is definitely the dominant one and this applies to all situations. however, with the younger two dogs this varies from situation to situation and from day to day.
even in a general sense, and allowing for exceptions, is there any behavioural differences between male and female dogs?

motherjack - as well as 3 dogs upstairs last night we also had a chicken!

[CalamityKate]

Precisely.

[MotherJack]

This has been really insightful - thank you. In a way then, it is like human behaviours, but relationships are formed far quicker perhaps and evolve quicker.

The reason behind my asking has been put on the back burner for now, due to temporary foster dog.... It is interesting to see how they behave in different situations. They made me laugh was last night.... they decided to swap beds in the kitchen so I had huge gangly giraffe-necked dog (Little) splayed out and overhanging Large's small plush bed and Large (think miniature Thelwell Pony) in the corner of Little's humongous bed and both kept a gimlet eye on each other, Large looking rather more pleased with herself than Little.

The reason behind my question was related to the rescue I got Large from. They have another of the same age stuck in kennels and I was interested in getting her out (even just foster) but there was concern that as they are two older ladies one would want to be boss and concern that neither would back down. Like yours Calamity, but on the assumption that one of them would want to be "pack leader".

Chicken - I know of your chicken from the other thread . I like the sound of her! How is she doing today?

[chickchickchicken]

she is doing very well still trying to be realistic as hens can go downhill suddenly but at the moment she is eating, drinking, wandering around the garden and garage. just being her usual inquisitive self, which is great

when we took on our second rescue (foster but we kept him) the rescue recommended a male submissive dog as we had an older dominant female dog. not sure though if this is an old school way of thinking? i find it interesting but know so little about it

[chickchickchicken]

could you take them both out for walks first and see how they get on? and then build upon that?
it seems a shame not to give it a go as you are prepared to offer dog a home

[MotherJack]

Well, that's what I offered to do, Chicken. I know the rescue are old school in many respects (have seen comments such as "Caesar would be proud" for example...), but at the same time I know that most share the beds and sofas! Like you, I find it interesting but know so little. There was a book recommended to me on another thread. Did you see that??

[chickchickchicken]

i think i did but could you remind me please? (tired as kept getting up to check madonna was ok during the night. bit like being a new mum!)

[MotherJack]

Whoops - I have just spent ages looking for the thread with the book recommendation.... and couldn't find it anywhere.

It's this one

Scroll down