Another horrible evening

[Slippersmum]

Sadly another horrible evening! My 13 yr old dd just seems hell bent on an argument every night. I am so worn down with it. I just do not know what to do anymore. She is vile to her siblings. This evening her 5 yr old brother wanted the loo but for some reason she stopped him going into the bathroom upstairs as he was getting ready for bed and was forcing him downstairs alone which he does not like to do. I intervened and she was just so rude. She has 3 siblings none of whom behave like this. I just don't know anymore. I want her to be happy. I want us all to be happy! If it was occasionally it wouldn't be so bad but it is every single night. Any ideas/suggestions please.

[chocoluvva]

Give her a good quality supplement for teenage girls - with chromium, b-vitamins, magnesium, vitamin D and essential fatty acids.

Refuse to get drawn in to arguments - easier said than done - seriously though teenage girls love to wallow in arguing/drama. Ignore as much of the small stuff as you can and don't argue - say your piece once then tell her you've already talked about it.

There are some useful books about the teenage brain you might like to read.

Try to do your own thing too so you get a break from thinking about your children - you must have a lot on your plate with four children. I'm still envious of you having four though

Also, ask her opinions about stuff, listen to her views without commenting too much and compliment her (briefly) whenever possible so that she feels loved just for being her even though she is driving you to distraction

[Number42]

Take comfort from the fact that you have made me feel better. My dd(14) does almost exactly that with her younger brother and the loo! (with her it is about her monopolising the bathroom even when she knows it is his bedtime and not hers). They are truly horrible. Advice - who am I to give it, but for what it's worth:

• Definitely don't concern yourself with whether she is happy or not. I'm sure she is loved and secure which is what matters. Teenage years are not necessarily about happiness I think.
  
• You and the rest of you being happy is a legitimate goal though. On that, agree with choccoluva about trying not to get drawn into arguments. Try to work out what you think is really important and focus on enforcing that. The rest let go and don't even bother mentioning. Rudeness is probably not in the really important category I would suggest, beyond perhaps a very calm "Don't be rude please" to indicate to the other kids that no, this is not OK.
  
• It is amazing when you put your mind to it how little you actually need to speak to your teenager! More interaction usually just means more argument.
  
• Remember that this does not mean she does not love you. It is nasty developmental stuff - basically they have to persuade themselves that they hate you so that they can leave home as they know they need to.

[ragged]

If you asked "Why are you so grumpy?" what would she say?

[chocoluvva]

Yes, IME most teenagers go through a very tiresome phase.

[bigTillyMint]

It is, sadly, normal.

Could she be tired?
DD was horrible earlier. Then DH found her asleep in her room. She is fine now

Is she the oldest?

[Slippersmum]

Thanks so much for all the tips. I will try them all. She has actually asked to take vitamins in the past and takes a daily vitamin C, so will look into those suggested. I have asked why she seems unhappy but if she does have any idea she cannot verbalise it. Her temper is terrible and I do get drawn straight in, I know I do. Sometimes I try to reply with a minimal response then as it goes on I get cross and shout which is completely the wrong way to handle it! I have withdrawn everything; phone, iPad even stopped her from seeing her horse. Which is now a nightmare for me as I am having to look after her!! Nothing seems to work. Her position within the family is second youngest and I wonder if being displaced from her baby of the family position did have an impact but that was 7 years ago now. I had also considered the sleep issue and bedtimes have slipped so going to tighten up on that. Do people think lights out at 8.30 is too early? Thanks so much again for the brilliant comments so appreciate it!

[Slippersmum]

Choco do you have the titles of any useful books?

[Number42]

8.30 Sounds v early to me but every child is different.
Personally I would give back iPad etc and certainly horse - I'd have thought what she needs is to get away from the rest of the family, not be forced to be with them. I don't think you'll get her to stop being infuriated by her siblings by punishing her.
I don't know what exactly she has done but those are not punishments I would give for being vile to siblings. I would just say "If you're so angry you can't relate sensibly to your siblings I think it would be better if you just go to your room and we all keep out of each other's way for the next hour", or whatever. (That's not a "go to your room" order by the way, it's a suggestion. And if she says "No I'm not f*ing going" then at least you have an in to say "well can you moderate your horribleness please if you're going to be in our space". Not magic but has some effect I find.)
Imagine you are sharing living space with a flatmate with a seriously annoying constant habit - nervous laugh or tuneless humming or something. That is where she is - except the annoying habit that her siblings have is just existing!
The much-recommended "Get out of My Life...." is brilliant I think.

[darlingfascistbullyboy]

I think 8:30 is extremely early for a typical 13 yo. What time does she have to get up? dd is 14 (year 9) & up at 6am to be out of the house at 6:40 ... she hands over phone & computer at 10 (often reads for longer). Very few of her similarly friends have 'bedtime' any more tbh.

[slug]

I have a 13 year old DD. Her light goes out at 10 at the latest. I will qualify that by saying she is generally a very good sleeper, gets up without complaint and is capable of going to bed earlier if she's tired.

You could try gradually extending it to 9 initially then to 9:30 if she's behaving herself.

[Slippersmum]

Yes agreed it's too early just wondered if it would help as a short term measure for her anger issues. She is up at 6.15 but is a person who needs her sleep. Her aggression is not limited to her siblings but to all of us. We decided to remove iPad etc to try and modify her rudeness really as asking etc was doing nothing. She has not told me to fxxx off in person but has via text and has shouted every name under the sun directly to me. No one else in the family behaves this way. I don't want her younger brother hearing her and thinking it is acceptable. She has been lovely since everything has been taken from her but I think that's more to do with the aftermath of a tremendous outburst from
her. If people feel I am off base with these punishments what's the general consensus for the way forward? Thanks again

[Lonecatwithkitten]

I can really recommend reading 'get out of my life' it help me to understand that DD was looking for attention, any kind of attention. In fact negative attention is easiest to obtain. Once you understand that it helps you to reward other actions with positive attention and move away from this kind of behaviour.

[ssd]

I think her bed time is ridiculous for a child her age, she must feel you are trying to get rid of her which I wouldnt blame you for

[Slippersmum]

It isn't her bed time we were discussing how to improve the current situation, just throwing ideas around as I am keen to get some fresh ideas as sometimes when you are in the eye of the storm it can be difficult to work out what's happening and I have had some great suggestions.

[Smugnogplease]

My almost 14 yr old has become vile lately, I too take the bate and sometimes shout and send her to her room etc. It's hard as she is totally hideous to her db who is 10, but fine to her sister who is 5.
She religiously goes to sleep at 8:30. She gets up at 6 and never needs waking for shower etc so it's the right time for her. God I couldn't stand her up any later than that. We have no iPod after dinner either and she doesn't have a phone but I'm a bit wired like that compared to others I think. Certainly until her attitude improves I'll not be giving her a much wanted phone!

[Number42]

So maybe removing things works for her. Every kid is different. That said if she behaved better after an outburst it suggests she is stressed - not legitimately, of course; stressed because the mere existence of the rest of the members of the family annoys the hell out of her.
Personally I would try to get her out of the house as much as possible - better for everyone including her.
Absolutely understand your concern that others think this sort of behaviour is OK if she isn't punished for it, but I think one can address that by just saying calmly "It is not OK to talk to people like that". It's just about putting down a marker. Oh yes and try to hold yourself to that standard and try not to shout and swear yourself - v v difficult I know. But example is the best long-term teacher I believe for these things (long-term!).
Funnily enough when our dd is disgusting I feel upset and even sometimes afraid rather than angry. Everyone reacts differently.

[Slippersmum]

Thanks for that Smugnog. You may something there about stress Number 42. She struggles to maintain positive relationships out of the home as well. She has currently fallen out with her friendship group, they are not speaking to her saying 'she has to change' but she claims she doesn't know what they mean by that. She has never had a best friend, rather always part of a group of friends. I think she is quite immature for her age. Her birthday is the last day in August so some of her friends are almost a year older than her. I have suggested she talks to her friends about what the problem is but she refuses as she is very stubborn (like her Father). I know this is a period of learning how to manage and maintain relationships but she really does seem to struggle with this. I worry for her as I so want her to be happy but maybe thats up to her rather than me?? Incidentally this is really helping me sort things in my own mind, so thanks.