Inappropriate shouting

[nikos]

Ds (3.5) is currently being looked at for ASD. But at his last assessment they felt he was progressing so quickly that it might not be ASD but a language delay.
He has now settled into nursery really well, after about 6 months of aggressive behaviour, and will sit nicely with the other children in close proximity for snack time and story time.
What we still really have problems with is shouting at staff when he arrives . They only have to say good morning in a nice friendly voice and he shouts at them. He also will not sit with the others for register. But after this time (about 15 minutes into the day) he settles and plays well.
One theory I have is that the lead worker often chats to the children at register time and that he finds that threatening in terms of processing the language. But to be honest I'm at a bit of a loss to explain it. He can be in a very good mood before we go in and then just turn.
Does anyone have any ideas about what he may be thinking or ways to get him to sit nicely for register?

[KarenThirl]

It could be a transition problem, moving from Not At Nursery to Being At Nursery, which is always difficult for children with ASDs. I'd probably try doing a simple social story about arriving at nursery, explaining why he's there and that the teachers/staff are kind, and what happens when he arrives. Taking the uncertainty out of the situation will help him relax.

Sounds like he's come to terms with where he is by the time they have snack and story time, so he can cope with those better.

Have they changed the way they do registration? That could unsettle him as it's not what he's used to.

Do all the children chat together - if so maybe there's too much sensory input and he is struggling to process it, which can be unsettling too.

Once you've established and explained all this you could build in a reward for each time he manages to sit nicely, and give him masses of praise for it too.

[KarenThirl]

It could also be a proximity thing - maybe he doesn't like being close to all the children in one small space (do they sit together on the carpet or something similar?). There could be other sensory reasons, even down to the staff wearing strong perfume or a patterned blouse.

[nikos]

Itr doesn't seem to be a proximity issue as he will sit for story time and that is the same scenario as register.
I'm trying to understand why this comes out as anger. He does enjoy nursery when he has settled in. The older he is getting the more it is just coming across as plain rude and I'm wondering if I should be a bit firmer with him i.e. not just excuse it as a possible ASD symptoms. It's not pleasant for the staff to be shouted at by a nearly 4 year old when they just say good morning.

[KarenThirl]

My ds has expressed his frustration with anger and aggression for a long time, though like your boy he was lovely and polite until about 2 and a half, if a bit lively. As social situations became more sophisticated he became less able to cope and the problems were more visible because his responses were more obvious and anti-social. At your son's age he probably won't be sure of rules and boundaries so you'll need to make sure he knows before you start insisting on tight discipline, or there's a risk you could make things worse. Look at the ASD possibilities first before you clamp down on him.

As for the staff, if they know he's being assesed for ASD they should have some understanding of what that involves, if not you might have to explain it to them. Either way, it doesn't sound like he's doing this deliberately and they, as grown ups, should be able to cope with him being rude to them.

[nikos]

So if it is an issue of transition would it come out as anger? I suppose I'm trying to understand why he can be so pleasant later in the morning, but be angry almost the minute he walks through the door.

[nikos]

I find (probably like most parents with ASD children) that if I can try and understand his behaviour it really helps us both and usually leads to a solution.

[KarenThirl]

With J (and many other ASD kids of my acquaintance) the change can be instant, like flicking a switch, and they can come back down again just as quickly. It can be alarming to some people, the intensity with which our children's emotions vary. J's anger has been described as 'nothing short of spectacular', yet seconds before and after he'd be calm and peaceful.

Have you read Asperger Syndrome and Difficult Moments? It's very good at explaining the rage cycle.

[nikos]

No, I haven't read that, it sounds really useful. Do you feel up to summing it up

[KarenThirl]

Not really! It's quite complicated, I'm not just being difficult, honest! And I'm just putting the tea out too...

The gist is that there's a calm stage, a rumbling stage, a meltdown stage and a coming-down stage (iirc - it's a while since I read it). Ideally you should aim to recognise the signs that he's about to blow and use strategies to help him calm and avoid the meltdown. Once you're in meltdown there's not much you can do but ride it out.

You could also try The Out of Sync Child, which explains a lot of sensory issues. There's another called Volcano In My Tummy, which is a workbook about managing anger, but your lad is too young for that yet, though you might get some ideas from it for how to help him.

There could be so many things that are setting him off, tbh.

I remember a couple of years ago when ds was learning a song for a play in school, they had to do actions similar to YMCA, but he kept getting confused because there was a sign language chart on the wall just ahead of him and he was convinced everyone else but him was doing the letters wrong. It was weeks before we realised this, and all the while he just kept getting crosser and crosser.

Gotta go, tea's ready...

[nikos]

That's really interesting Tclanger - did your ds do the shouting at register time/on entering nursery? I've followed your story a bit on sn board and our dc sound very similar. I suspect ds has a language processing problem but was presenting intially with ASD symptoms(although not the really obvious ones). And my gut feeling (and I could very well be wrong ) is that he cannot sit for register as language might be expected of him.
Karen - I've ordered the book on Amazon so thanks so much for that.

[allytjd]

All three of my boys have acted like this from toddlerhood to school age. I always put it down to shyness, they would talk to adults if they (the kids) initiated the conversation but would often act aggressive, shout and or hide if a grown up spoke directly to them (very embarrasing when old ladies wanted to chat in the street. DS3 (the NT one) would refuse to go in to nuesery if one particular worker opened the door, and gets v. upset if he is last in to playgroup. It can be difficult to separate ordinary shyness and lack of confibdence from ASD, especially in my family, but just because something is a bit unusual does not mean it is not normal IYSWIM. I think some nursery staff are not very good at talking to kids either, too jolly and starey for shy kids.

[nikos]

Ally - thanks for that. I think that's what I'm trying to sort out. Is the shouting due to the ASD or just a normal reaction. And if it is a normal reaction then I want to curb it as it just feels rude.
I do agree about nursery staff not knowing how to talk to children - the loud booming voices in the morning. Ds went for a taster to his new setting today and the staff were much better. The teacher came down to his level and spoke in a gentle voice.

[nikos]

TClanger - I noticed on another thread that you said ds started imaginative play at 3.5-4 years and that it was hard to do without a language narrative. Our ds is following exactly this pattern - he's between 3-4 years and his verbal skills have increased and he is showing real imaginative play.

Can I ask about another problem that might be AS trait or again a red herring? Ds is going for play therapy and when he is asked a question he can't process, he will defer to a previous conversation he has had e.g about going on holiday or buses which he loves. It is quite an Aspergic trait (talking about one subject) but he only does this when he knows he has to communicate but can't figure out what's required. Did your ds do this?

[TotalChaos]

Nikos - DS (4.2, speech delay unsure about ASD, probably not according to paed) - does the same - I think it's the case of not quite understanding the question or not being able to think of the right answer, so in desperation using an answer that has worked for them in the past!

[TotalChaos]

TClang - I've seen differing definitions about the speech delay - I think Gillberg criteria for Aspergers allows for a speech delay, and also I have seen the DSM criteria of no significant delay in speech being interpreted as a child having communicative phrases by 36 months, rather than a child having no delay at all.

[nikos]

With ds, so many of the core AS traits are not there, but he does seem to have a problem processing language. So for example, if someone was to ask him "What did you have for lunch" he would struggle to answer, both because of processing and because it is not in the here and now.
Did either of your children have delayed toilet training. Ds will be 4 in SEptember and he is only now starting to realise when he has done a poo.

[nikos]

How is your ds now TC? Is he coping well with school?