Can someone have Aspergers and a low IQ?

[cornflakegirl]

A friend of mine has been tested by some psychologists recently and they have suggested she may have Aspergers. I was really surprised when she told me, as I though people with AS were high-functioning. She has an IQ somewhere in the 80s, and would be described by most people as a slow learner (eg no GCSEs over a D grade).

I wouldn't be surprised to learn she was on the autistic spectrum (because of her social interaction), but I never would have thought AS. Is it possible?

[Peachy]

Not sure tbh, although ds1 has AS with additional learning difficulties if that helps? He is great in some areas- eg speech- but has real,problems in others, such as a 3 year delay in reading / writing- has never ahd a formal IQ test but it would vary massively in different areas.

[cornflakegirl]

Peachy - I hope you don't mind me asking... does your DS1 do the "obsessive interest in a narrow field" thing - or do I have a wild generalisation stuck in my head?

[Peachy]

He has been known to, but is clear atm- saying that he internalises things so you only know when strange qwuestions come up that he has been thinking on one thing for ages, iyswim

It was hydrangeas for a while .

[cornflakegirl]

That sounds like it could be tricky to pursue

I've just been googling AS, and I'd say that my friend meets some of the social interaction criteria, but not the stuff about restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour.

Am still really confused about the IQ thing though - some sites don't mention it at all, but for others it's the most important test!

[Tiggiwinkle]

I am pretty sure that to meet the diagnostic crieteris for AS you have to be of average or above average IQ-that is the main criteria setting it apart from other ASDs as I understand it.

[Tiggiwinkle]

criteria-must check before I post!

[cornflakegirl]

Tiggiwinkle - thanks - at least if I'm wrong I'm not alone!

[jenk1]

hi
i always understood that to be dx,d with AS you had to have average/above average IQ as that is what sets it apart from ASD.

i will ask psych as we are speaking to him later today.

[aig]

For a diagnosis of Aspergers you have to have normal language development up to the age of 3 yrs and an IQ over 70. So yes, your friend may have AS.

[bullet123]

One of the things that sets people on the spectrum apart from other people is that they often have high verbal skills and low non verbal skills on IQ tests, or vice versa. For example with myself (Aspergers) I typically score between 120 and 140 on verbal tests and between less than 90 and less than 70 on non verbal tests. Most people would have similar (though obviously not identical) scores in their verbal and non verbal tests. My older son (autistic) is only four so too young for an IQ test but he tested at 1 - 2 % percentile for his understanding and appropriate use of speech, 30% for his expressive speech and 90% for his non verbal skills (eg jigsaws). So if your friend's test had a high proprtion, say, of non verbal questions, or she got a very low score on that section, but just above average with her verbal questions that might have averaged out the score to the 80's.

[cornflakegirl]

aig - that's really interesting.

bullet - that hadn't occurred to me - thanks for that.

Her language skills in everyday interaction seem okay, as long as you stick to simple subjects. But if you start talking about a subject that requires her to assimilate new information (eg, how tightly a child's car seat straps should be done up) she tends to switch off.

So not sure how she'd rate on just verbal questions.

[bullet123]

Well, on the surface my own language skills would seem to be fine for someone who only sees me for a short while. Those that know me for longer can see some differences. These are:
Occasionally (once or twice a day o once or twice a month dependant on how things are) hearing the words but not being able to understansd them.
I find it very difficult to initiate, particularly when talking about wants or needs. This has led to my almost getting hurt at the hairdresser's as the water was getting too hot, not being able to ask for a drink or get to the kitchen and get a drink myself in an unfamiliar place and being in severe pain for two weeks and unable to say when a family dog knocked her head against mine. First two examples happened within the last few months, last one some years ago. If I'm meeting someone I often rehearse questions in my mind. Or I ask the same things over and over.
Talking out of context and expecting people to understand me.
Being able to talk at somebody on a topic like Greek legends or early Christianity, but finding it harder to ask a simple question. Or presuming I should ask the question. I spent all my secodary school PE lessons in the same PE kit because I couldn't ask for a new one.
Having pefect willingness to talk but being unable to get the words out, it's as though there's a locked door in my head.
I can't judge the right times to enter into a conversation with more than two people in it.
I can't make eye contact easily so miss out on a lot of non verbal clues. If I try and make eye contact I start to lose understanding of the words.
I far prefer being able to write than talk, but do talk if and when I can. There are times I can carry on a conversation well if I've thought before what to say and it's a familiar topic. Other times when even monosyllabic words are beyond me. Language is very confusing.

[cornflakegirl]

Okay, so if she could have Aspergers...

The reason all this has come up is because she had her first child six months ago. She moved into a supported living centre, where they assessed her ability to cope, and two months ago SS took her daughter into care. I don't know the precise reasons, but they included concern about her daughter's immediate wellbeing (safety at bathtime, roughness when changing clothes, possible lack of eye contact), and also concern about whether my friend would be able to keep up with her daughter's changing needs.

If she has Asperger's, could it cause these kinds of problems? Can she be taught ways to cope? Where should she go for help?

[bullet123]

I'm sorry, but this makes me extremly angry. I dread to think what would have happened if people had presumed I couldn't cope with my lads, if they'd have thought that because I'm on the spectrum I must be incapable. For example I will make eye contact with my lads, I deliberately force myself to make eye contact with my lads. However, if I didn't I would still be interacting with them, playing with them, talking to them.
I consider myself to be perfectly fine to look after my children and my being Aspergers helps. I understand the security of routines for very young children. I have a strong sense of justice and teaching children right from wrong. I have strong hyperlexic traits so my children were read to literally from birth. I have a strong rote memory so can recall loads of stories and rhymes to teach my children. I perseverated on child raising when my children were babies so got loads of magazines, visited forums, got advice. This is what a parent who is Aspergers can be like, not someone who will be rough or refuse to adapt.
It reminds me a little of a situation I was in some years ago. I'd started a job a few weeks beforehand and one day the bosds came in.
"We've decided you're not suitable."
"Why?"
"Well, you might make a mistake with the wages."
"Have I made any mistakes so far?"
"No, but you've had somebody watching you on your trial period."
"So did I make any mistakes during that trial period?"
"No. But you might in future."

As a parent I do believe that a lot of people have this inbuilt instinct that overides any personal difficulties. I have extremely poor self help skills, they are slightly better ironically since having children. My children are washed, dressed in clean clothes, hair and teeth brushed every day. They have three meals plus snacks if they're hungry each day, one of which is always a hot meal. They are read and played to. If someone had assessed my ability to raise children based on the ability to care for myself they would have presumed I couldn't cope. Mummytosteven (if she reads this) has met me in real life, she will tell you my children are not abused or neglected (I hope ).

[cornflakegirl]

bullet - I expressed my last post really badly. I'm sorry you've encountered that sort of reaction

It's a bit different in my friend's case though. It's only in the last few weeks that anyone has suggested she might have Aspergers. So no-one was looking for problems based on her having AS.

She was assessed because it's obvious to anyone who knows her that she needs extra help with things (eg she didn't realise she was pregnant till she was 6 months gone). All the times I've seen her with her dd she seemed to be doing really well, but the staff at the centre still had concerns after she'd lived there for three months. Not about her attitude - she clearly adores her dd - but about the things she was actually doing.

But I don't know whether Aspergers could explain the difficulties she has - and what help is available if she does have it.

[bullet123]

Sorry, I should have said I wasn't angry at your post, just about what seemed to be social services pre-emptive actions. Having AS may mean she has sensory and perceptual differences and difficulties from other people, but that doesn't mean she can't be a good mum. She may need some support, but it doesn't mean she'll neglect her child. Social services could have recommended Home Start or Sure Stat. They could ask if she had any external support, perhaps you for example could lend a hand once in a while.
I only received my diagnosis last year so went through years of a lack of understanding in many instances as well.

[Peachy]

Interesting about home start as I used to be an Organiser for them and we had a family who were described as severe learning difficulyties, we found volunteers to go in 5 days a week 9and SS put in a family support worker 2 days) for about an hour each time- and the parents learned the skills needed to mroe than cope, to become bloody wonderful parents!

[bullet123]

I've been thinking about the question asked about how tight the car seat belt should be because I think this sort of question reflects very well the difficulties a verbal person on the spectrum can have. Fo instance, with myself I might have the words in mind, but be unable to get them out. Also, whilst I have an excellent imagination if I have to predict what will happen to something out of my control (eg picturing how a carseat strap would do up, in my mind) this would be very difficult. It's one of the reasons I do so poorly on non verbal iq tests. I know the technical answer to be "so two fingers can fit underneath) but then I still take that solution apart in my mind, what if they're very fat fingers? WDo they mean just up to the first knuckle, or all the way down to the hand? I only know that answer because of my perseveration on child raising ensured I found out about it. And if I could I'd trot out the "two fingers" answer and if not the person would get a blank look. The main thing to see in this csae is whether your friend can do up the car seat. I actually still need my husband to help me out with the car seats a lot of the time, because I have difficulties with fine motor skills and planning and orgnaisation, so he's my safety net. I don't drive as I don't believe I'd be safe or confortable enough personally to do so. But your friend may be different.

[cornflakegirl]

The thing with the car seat - I was about to take them both home in my car, but we were still inside the building. Her daughter was already in the car seat, with the straps done up, but they were too loose - baggy loose. I told my friend that they needed to be tighter. She said they were okay. I tightened them.

There could be lots of explanations - she could have meant that they were tight enough for the current situation - or something else. But it wasn't the only time that I had to tighten the harness before setting off on a trip. I actually phoned the centre about that, because I thought it warranted them keeping a closer eye.

The suggestions about people going in - that's what we wanted to do. I actually first met my friend at church, and she has a really good support network there. We could have easily found people to go in every day to help. But SS believe that her daughter actually needs someone else to be her primary carer. (My friend is a single mum, which makes everything harder.)

[TotalChaos]

how very sad, I do hope that the diagnosis opens some doors to your friend getting the support she seems to need to parent. When I had the HV visiting me, I would be told off about being overly rough in how I dressed DS (I am clumsy!) and I know my eye contact is not good. It sounds though as if there are bigger issues than that with your friend.

I don't have a diagnosis, but float pretty close to the borders of AS one way or the other. I could imagine having problems with an unfamiliar car seat - if I get a life I usually make sure my friends do up the car seat instead! I would probably have difficulties because it would be a bit overloading organising young child/my buggy/bags and dealing with the car seat.

And I do vouch that bullet is a bl**dy good mother.


(the MNetter formerly known as MTS)

[cornflakegirl]

TC - the car seat was part of her travel system.

I think your comment about bigger issues is right. Whenever I visited my friend in the centre, I thought that the demands the staff put on her were way higher than most mums met. But I didn't see the totality, and they did, and I can only trust that they are professionals who want the best outcome for her daughter.

[bullet123]

I would hope they are as well. Besides the car seat issue, did you feel she would be ok to look after her child with some support? It's worth pointing out that every mum needs support, regardless of a diagnosis or lack of diagnosis.
Does she have access to see her daughter on a regular basis? Are social services prepared to offer her strategies and ways of coping? Nobody is a perfect parent, which is why everybody needs support, like I said, but some help can make all the difference. I know Social Services usually say they will only remove children in extrem cases, can they show that they followed all the necessary procedures and that there was clear evidence that your fiend was neglecting and/or harming her baby? A lack of eye contact does not count. For a start many young babies veer off eye contact themselves (especially if something else catches their eye :D). With the bathing was she definitely being rough or just appear to be?

[bullet123]

Sorry, I meant to say "your friend"

[cornflakegirl]

I felt that she would be okay with support - but I didn't see everything. She was only allowed a certain amount of time a week away from the centre, and I tended to get frustrated if I visited her at the centre, because they would insist on silence during feeds and stuff. I still don't know how she stuck it out. But I do believe they were doing their best to help her and to assess her ability to care for her daughter.

She has regular access to her daughter now, but social services want to find another primary carer rather than offer my friend ways to cope. Her solicitor is trying other avenues such as supported living.

I don't know whether SS followed the proper procedure. I'm a very close friend, but a complete outsider as far as this process is concerned. I'm just trying to support my friend as best I can. Most of the information I have is through her, and she doesn't have a full understanding of everything that's going on - I don't want to confuse her or upset her by pumping for information.

[bullet123]

"tended to get frustrated if I visited her at the centre, because they would insist on silence during feeds and stuff"

No! No, no, no, no, no!! {angry].
What the hell were they thinking? Talking to your baby during feeds is very impotant. Even letting the baby hear other conversations around them can help. It's a way of bonding with the baby, of encouraging communication, of letting them have a shared moment. Even just singing to the baby can help. How many times do you hear the cliche of pretend trains and aeroplanes going into the baby with food? Or getting the baby to babble "more". Communication at these times is very important. It's one of the reasons looking back I could tell something wasn't normal with my Ds1, because I would talk and wait for him to babble answer all the time, especially during meals and he never would.
Insisting on silence during feeds is very outdated (or maybe never existed as a parenting fad) and should be strongly criticised. How is your friend supposed to learn to communicate and bond with her baby if she's not allowed to do so naturally.
To be perfectly honest I think she needs someone to talk for her, someone to advocate for her who is aware that insisting on silence during feeds and also placing too high demands is not conducive to a good mother -child bonding. Does she have anyone with a good knowledge of childcare who would speak on her behalf? I do think from what you've been saying she needs some support, but how is she to get that support with the wrong advice given?