Meeting with LA to discuss proposed

[KOKOagainandagain]

Have a meeting next week with DS2's case worker and senior person who I know from previous contact deals with tribunal cases and placement in LA new HFA free school.

My expectations are low. This was desperate delaying tactics as the end of the SA process coincided with my mother dying. Atm DS2 has no school place for sept as we are moving at the end of the month.

My brain is not working so any advice gratefully received. The proposed is less hours 1:1 than he had on SA+ and salt and OT has been omitted even though he is visited in school termly, has devised interventions delivered by TA but monitored by salt and OT.

He never had support at breaktimes but statement says he should - this takes up the entire allotted support time leaving no time for any other support at all during the rest of the school day.

The LA EP report reads very different and highlights vulnerability and need for environmental modification.

How would you approach this?

[SchoolHolsTOWIE]

Oh keep - I'm so very sorry about your mum. I've been away so missed this. An awful awful time for you.

Are you moving within same county? Will any potential new school be back in county?

[KOKOagainandagain]

Oh, TOWIE - thank god you are back.

Staying in Suffolk, have said we intend to name o/s m/s when statement finalised - school say they are full. This school is in neighbouring village - village school also say they are full (not my choice anyway). DS2 has no place. So much for transition. The full schools would not let us visit before end of term.

[bjkmummy]

keep, im also so sorry to hear about your mum x . I have no practical advice as such as my LA are so unreasonable that no meeting would possibly help. I hope you manage to get something sorted out x

[KOKOagainandagain]

Thanks bjk

I feel like we are entering free fall. Forced to tribunal - I won't pay the cost for crap m/s so here we go again. Meanwhile DS2 has no place. I was prepared to place him in another m/s primary once he had his statement that just might have been able to meet need but, no, everywhere is full.

[TigerLightBurning]

I never had a meeting but got the hours upped to fulltime by arguing my case. If you write down all the reasons why he needs it and the school will need it and take it with you. We argued for ST but didn't get that.

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

School being full is irrelevant if they have a statement. The planned admission number, maximum class size etc are calculated on the number of un-statemented children.

Also, the school can't really say no to a LA imposing a statemented child upon them unless they can prove they aren't able to meet the needs outlined in the statement and/or that there are health and safety issues which cannot be reasonably overcome (eg adding 10 extra statemented dc with their 10 extra TAs to a physically tiny village school with 2 classes)

Can't understand why the LAs never use this, as it would've let them scam the government rules and targets about how many kids in a class etc.

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

I'm sorry to hear about your mum . This should've been a time when you can stop fighting for a bit and look after yourself

[KOKOagainandagain]

With ds1 the LA increased hours by 5 hours but otherwise the crap proposed stood until the day of tribunal hearing.

I am hoping that the number of hours can be increased and salt and OT are added (the statement should at least include current provision ffs) but if they won't budge I will be forced to tribunal. If i do that I am concerned that the reports will all point to ss HFA provision when I have a hope that his needs could be met in m/s and that he would have more options open to him in the m/s if only ...

[KOKOagainandagain]

Meir - thanks. I can't take time for myself now - we are moving at the end of the month, the whole statementing thing, completing my phd thesis and then a possible medical negligence case relating to mum. Then I will collapse in a heap

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

PhD thesis and moving are more than enough to be getting on with.

Statement process will be the usual cr*p no doubt. And whatever you do or say makes very little difference to the outcome until you get in front of that judge with all your evidence. Though at this rate, it might be so transparently bad that judicial review of the decision-making could be appropriate. In which case, you just may get legal aid in the dc name to do that alongside the slower tribunal stuff.

If all the reports pointed to an expensive faraway specialist school solution, but the parents made strong representations for a trial of a cheaper, local option, I think you'd get what you wanted. Because parents have the right to insist on mainstream in all but the most extreme of extreme circumstances.

There was one case which wouldv'e involved the LA physically building a special unit attached to a maintained mainstream, and then finding (from somewhere) a suitable peer group willing to be bussed in so he wasn't educated in isolation. It'd have to be quite an unusual panel to force a LA to try a distant-costly-indie-special school first-line.

Do you have a solicitor for the medical thing? If not (and even if you do) might that perhaps be something that could wait for a little bit?

[KOKOagainandagain]

Meeting now this week. I have just read the proposed and am reminded again that it is beyond crap. I could rewrite it on the limited official reports that they have. They quote the school a lot but almost nothing from their own EP report - apart from half a sentence - you know the style - recognise strength but then detail weakness - the statement quotes strengths and ignores weaknesses.

Part 3 is a joke - ds2 needs to develop his language skills and so provision is ... SUPPORT to develop language skills. End of communication section. Wow. Just, wow. Er, what does this support look like - who, what, when, frequency, measurement of progress! No mention of salt involvement for past 4+ years that is ongoing.

What is the point? I seriously can't be arsed to rewrite it before the meeting and if the LA won't budge and are set on tribunal it would be a waste of time atm. I did request the meeting though delaying tactic Can I just say that part 2 is inaccurate and partial and that part 3 is insufficient and leave it at that? See what they have to offer but not give a potential appeal case away. It really wouldn't take that much thought but we are talking the LA here and they seem not prone to thought.

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

Don't do their job for them, you've got more important things to b getting on with. Can I just say that part 2 is inaccurate and partial and that part 3 is insufficient and leave it at that sounds fine. But without much effort you could highlighter pen everything some large chunks from their own reports and ask if they could be included in part 2 along with his current provision in part 3.

Obviously they'll say no, but pigs might fly and if they do, you want to look reasonable. In the unlikely event that the LA apologises for their oversight and changes the proposed to include everything their own staff recommend, you can reconsider if only for a millisecond whether the time and expense of another tribunal is needed

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

'But Mrs KeepOn, he's really far too complex for us to quantify and specify, his needs will be constantly changing, the people best palced to decide on what he needs are those working with him on a day-to-day basis, and of course under the new HESC plans, the school can meet all conceivable needs from their own resources you know, we don't want to deprive him of all the extra provision they'll think of without us getting in their way'

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

SoS SEN's weasel words list (scroll down). And a SEN officer's guide to meetings (not my particular county, you understand... DC's SEN officer is a model pathfinding beacon of ethical and evidence-based excellence)

[KOKOagainandagain]

Thanks Meir

This is all such a mess. I have said that I intend to name m/s when statement is finalised but we are moving at the end of the week and DS2 has no place from sept. I don't see how school could respond before sept. In an ideal world I would home ed prior to tribunal but if I do it will be a disaster for my phd. All the research is done and it is partially written but I have to submit by June 2015 which sounds a long way away but has to be submitted to publishers a month before that and supervisors need a complete copy at least a month before and then you have to allow time for an edit of the full thesis following submission to supervisors, arrangements for external examiners to viva etc etc. so really the whole thing should be in full by Feb 2014. How is this going to be possible with DS2 potentially out of school?

[KOKOagainandagain]

How many hours should I go for in m/s? EP report says

Exhibits significant and ongoing additional needs

Needs a high level of adult support

Requires support to begin and stay on task for adult directed evidence. Long term aim to develop independent working skills.

Support during breaktimes and semi-structured lessons like PE

TRS for pre learning skills - remaining in seat, being quiet (as opposed to random repetition or singing) and concentration and attention.

I obviously need to get his salt and OT programmes back in.

The only thing recognised in the proposed is support at breaktimes - hence a grand total of five hours unspecified support.

I plan to highlight the above and ask for it to be included but don't know what this 'means' in terms of the level of support the EP was recommending.

[KOKOagainandagain]

Adult directed activities

[billiejeanbob]

the EPs recomendations are vague and not quantified (as most LA EP's are!). If you were to go to tribunal you would probably need an indie EP to specify and quantify the amount of 1:1. From the LA EP's recomendations I would think you are looking at full time 1:1, although it would be difficult to prove this to a judge without it being recomended by an EP.
my LA refused to even include 'a very high level of adult support' in the statement, even though this was recomended by both their own EP and OT. By the time we got to the hearing they had named 27 hours of TA support, although the judge had to order the wording of 'on a 1:1 basis'.

[KOKOagainandagain]

If the LA won't play ball (almost certainly guaranteed) I am not paying 13k (cost of Indi reports etc for DS1's tribunal) only to have a m/s school ignore it so I will change parental preference to Indi ss.

[KOKOagainandagain]

If I do that following the meeting what happens to DS2 in the meantime? Will the LA place in catchment primary that claims to be full? If the school has 15 days to respond in sept won't EOTAS be triggered or will they get him in sooner? He has had no transition at all and I worry that he will not go several weeks into term

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

If LA force him onto an unwilling primary with no extra , and it's a disaster (for them), just sit tight & keep sending him, maybe while you get just one cheap-ish expert in to witness the debacle see how he's getting on. You may not have to shell out for full tribunal-quality assessment & recommendations just yet.

It's poor quality free childcare, rather than education, but needs must, short-term. You might get lucky, if the school really is unwilling, and end up with some school support for FT 1-1 etc.

Or else they'll have to bus him (on distance grounds) to an out-of-area school. Which might make it easier to persuade them to pay for SEN transport later, if need be.

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

Technically, is he still on roll at the old school?

[MeirEyaNewAlibi]

Looking at a county website, I think you're being scammed. The online admissions booklet clearly says a dc with statement + mainstream is dealt with via the normal admissions process. Extracts below

How do I make an in-year application?
Making an in-year application depends on which school or schools you want to apply for. xx County Council deals with in-year applications for the majority of schools in xx, acting on behalf of the governors in the case of voluntary aided, foundation/trust, academy and free schools. Some academies will deal directly with in-year applications.
In July 2013, A School & B Academy confirmed that they will manage their own in-year applications from September 2013. It is possible that more own admission authority schools may decide to manage their own
in-year applications.

If you are a xx resident, you can apply for a place by:
 filling in an in-year application form (CAF2) on page 45 of this booklet
 downloading and filling in a CAF2 from: xx.gov.uk/admissionstoschools
 filling in a CAF2 from the Admissions Team.

Section 3  Applying for a school place
Please note:
 you cannot apply online for an in-year school place
 if you have filled in a CAF2, send it to the Admissions Team. The contact details are on page 2 of this booklet. You can apply for up to three schools on the CAF2 in order of preference, naming the school you most want your child to go to as the first preference. Please do not use this application form to apply for A School or B Academy.
Please see the Directories of Schools in xx for school details, oversubscription criteria and how we offer school places.

When will my in-year application be considered?
For schools which are part of the xx co-ordinated admission scheme, the Admissions Team aims to process your application
within 10 school days of receiving it. It may take slightly longer to process the application at busy times or if we need to contact
schools to ask if a place can be offered on their behalf.

Please note we will not normally consider your application more than one term ahead of the date when you want your child to
start at the school. However, if your child is in the final year of his or her current school, we will consider your application in line
with the timetable for the normal admissions round on page 3.

For academies which are not part of the xx co-ordinated admission scheme and are dealing with their own applications, please
speak to the school or refer to the school website. Contact details for all schools are in the Directories of Schools in xx.

How will you deal with my in-year application?

Schools which are part of the xxx co-ordinated admission scheme: Your application will be considered and we will let you know whether a place at the school can be offered. If there are more applications than places available, the relevant admissions oversubscription criteria in the Directories of Schools in xxx will be used to see who can and cannot be offered a place. More information about how places are offered can be found in the Directories of Schools in xxx. We will let you know how to appeal against the refusal of a place at your preferred schools.

xxx County Council does not hold waiting lists for in-year applicants.
Some voluntary-aided schools, academies and free schools may hold waiting lists throughout the year for all year groups. This information is available from the relevant school.

If a place becomes available in a year group that has been full we will consider all new applications, any that have been refused in the last 15 school days and any applicants for whom an appeal has been lodged and is still to be heard.

Once a place has been made available for your child you must take up that place by the date given in your offer letter. The school will put your child on roll by this date. If you fail to take up the place it will be withdrawn and may be reallocated.


How do I apply if my child has a statement ?

If your childs needs can be met in a mainstream school, you should apply for a school place on the CAF1 by the closing date for the normal year of entry or on the CAF2 for in-year applications. If you would like to discuss the options, please speak to the special educational needs co-ordinator at your childs current school, or if your child is starting school please contact xxxx.

You may also contact the schools preference adviser, see section 6 on page 20 for more information. We would normally expect any primary, infant, junior, middle, upper or high school to be able to meet a childs special educational needs when a mainstream place is required.

[KOKOagainandagain]

He has never been de-registered so still on the roll. We are applying through the normal admissions route but now admissions have referred to children's services so that they can send the proposed.

[KOKOagainandagain]

Upshot of meeting

Salt and OT are missing because the NHS didn't provide the updates with the medical evidence. Can I provide reports? Er, all reports submitted with application for SA and updates submitted along the way.

They will talk to EP about omitting most of her report and took a copy of what I had highlighted - this was deliberate omission so they hardly need this.

Nothing agreed except agreement to consider the already considered and dismissed.

Both the outstanding and catchment schools have said 'no'. The o/s school has experience with complex DS on the spectrum and is the same size as old school. This was parental preference. LA say no - school say no because they are at limit (not above) and have needy cohort. LA have accepted this and said that they will not name this school on the final.

Other school is twice the size and not parental preference. They are also full but LA thinks they have less needy DC in the class and plan to over ride their objection and for ds2 to start here in sept. They said if parents want other m/s primary it will mean another tribunal.

Any tips on what I could do next?