How do you 'teach' an AS child that THEY CANNOT WIN or be FIRST EVERY time!!!

[mrsforgetful]

DS2 cannot tolerate anyone winning or being 1st and will only share if it is on his terms etc.

I saw on a screening quiz that this can be exhibited by Autistic?Asperger's? children and as i am in the process of 'proving' my case for a DX I have been identifying and writing down typical common sources of anxiety for him-this and 'interrupting or stopping his playing without warning ' being two of the multi-daily examples.

Just wondered if A) any of you with dx's have this with their child and B) any ideas on strategies etc to try.

My ds1 who has the DX has none of these problems and ds3 tends to be the one who loses out - he canbe reasoned with- however ds2 cannot- the other day we had a meltdown over ds2 and 3 playing the playstation- ds1 was winning- ds2 restarted the game and insisted ds3 then had the weakest character (so he'd lose) - I asked ds2 how he'd feel if he was ds3 and always lost because he had the weakest characters etc- ds2 could not put himself in that position.....all he could see was his need to win. It took 45 mins (in which time for once i reacted to something he said in a very 'unlike-me-way'....I switched off the playstation intemper...which i regreted as this obviously made things 100% worse- then i took ds2 into another room untill after the 45 mins we had gone over and over it and eventually the ONLY way i got him to agree 'different terms' to his own was to explain that if ds3 continued to be the 'loser' he would lose interest and then ds2 would have to be alone....and because he does actually enjoy telling ds3 all his 'facts and figures' (like a running commentary)- he thankfully realised that he did not want that either- its 3 days now and things have been easier- but he cannot 'adapt' this to 'turn taking' on the T.V/Computer etc...so advise/comments PLEASE!!!!!

[coppertop]

Mrsf - this is something that we have been trying to work on too, although as ds1 is still so young it's hard to know if his inability to take turns is partly due to his age.

Our strategy was this: When ds1 was watching 'his' channel on TV, we gave the usual time-warnings (ie in 5 minutes I'm going to do x). Then we turned over saying "Daddy/Mummy's turn". There were huge howls of protest but we switched back almost immediately, saying "Ds1's turn." We gradually increased the amount of time on the other channel.

We were soon congratulating ourselves on a job well done. Ds1 even started to let others have a short time on the computer. You know there's a 'BUT' coming next though don't you?

BUT ds1 now thinks that the words "Mummy's turn" are to be used everytime he wants me to do something. In his eyes refusal is NOT an option! So the current situation in the coppertop household is this:

Ds1 is happily playing on the computer. I'm getting on with whatever needs to be done. Ds1 announces "Mummy's turn!" I politely decline but end up saying yes to avoid a huge meltdown over something fairly small. I then end up humiliating myself by having to ask ds1 to help because I'm stuck or don't know how to play the next section of the game.......

So, as you can see, lots of experience but not a lot of useful advice!

[mrsforgetful]

I suppose if i master this one then it will solve the "who sits in the front of the car" too...I suppose my biggest hurdle is getting ds1 and 2 to interact long enough to solve their issues- as i believe they are both AS this is a tough one.....they both take ages/talk-around-in-circles before getting to the point...and both get irritated waiting for the other to finish speaking etc....where as at least ds3 as i said can be reasoned with- and it's usually very easy to 'divert' him to something else....however i also often find it easier to remove ds1 as well---- ds2 is the hardest as he has the worst reactions to 'trauma'! When ds2 was younger- before ds3 was mobile- i would 'put' ds2 in one room with his brio and he would play uninterupted for hours- he had no interest in playstation- so ds1 was left alone too- however now ds2 and 1 like ds1's 'special interest'-playstation- and he doesn't like that- then ds2 asks ds1 for help- and ds1 refuses (cannot understand that he has 7 years of experience.....will not 'share' his knowledge. Then you've got ds3 wanting to play and ....... OH! It's just too confusing! I surrender!
Thanks dinosaur- I'd appreciate all the help i can get!

And coppertop....again .... We have so much in common!

[mrsforgetful]

Thanks....and don't worry about 'long posts' ....you are talking to the 'queen' of long posts!!!
This is all starting to make sense- I think the only thing that makes this harder is that because he does not have 'the' diagnosis yet that other people cannot try to see him as anything other than moody/selfish etc!

Tonight had another 'excellent' example of what i consider to be 'proof' to tell the 'experts'.
Normally we have tea after 5pm- there is NO set time- just simply 'after' 5pm. Tonight however due to ds3's persistence i had prepared their tea earlier....I was TOTALLY unprepared for ds2's reaction!! Luckily he was calmed very quickly when i explained that early tea meant he had longer to play before his bath- but it just reinforced to me how much he 'clock watches'!
A while back i had said 'bed at 8pm'- i forgot- he got very upset that i'd 'forgot' to put him to bed....now even my ds1 would be 'glad' i forgot !(i believe though ds1 does have AS ...that he's more dyspraxic than AS ---in the same way that i feel ds2 is more autie than AS....)

And another 'brilliant' example is when he's playing the playstation he will come down to tell me what 'character he's just defeated/how many points he has/ or what level he's on'-literally every 5 minutes- yet if ever i 'dare' to talk to him whilst he is down or coincide 'teatime' with his next 'visit' to me (i thought this would save him coming down especially to have tea) then I get a terrible reaction!!! He gets stroppy and says i'm wasting his time!!!! so now I wait till he's upstairs before i call him for tea!!!!

What more do i have to tell the experts to get the diagnosis....or isn't all this in their screening sheet!!! (ie. so if not then it doesn't 'fit' the DX!!!)

[mrsforgetful]

MARYZ- have thought alot about what you said- and have tried to putit in a way that my son will understand- and that i can explain to the 'experts' at the family assessment next month....and came up with this.....


If he was in a race and there were 100 people running IF he did not come first the 'uncertainty' is that he could therefore be anywhere from 2nd to 100th....whereas if he WINS he know exactly where heill be- so in the middle of the race his mind isn't 'concerned' about where he will be positioned


Is that kind of what you mean (bearing in mind i really do believe that i am AS too!)

The way i'd relate this to him is to try to find a way of convincing him that is he allows himself to lose once then the next time it won't be such a suprise?

[mrsforgetful]

had a very difficult day today as he had probs with his playstation (think it's worn out ! )
So he was up and down the stairs all morning (till we went out 'diy-shopping....that was the last straw for him!)When we got back i managed to persuade him to have a few battles with his Beyblade spinning tops- as a break as he'd had such a hard day etc....It took a while but i did manage it- and it was so lovely to see him doing this instead of playstation...trouble is whatever he plays with it is obsessivly and to the exclusion of anything else....how ever the advantage over the playstation is that the 'traditional toys' don't keep 'freezing' or 'lose data' or have the controllers pulled out when ds3 trips over them etc....
My point being here is that I am very 'tuned in ' to how he manipulates for example 'beyblades' so he does still win (by using his 'best' ones etc) -however as ds3 actually doesn't care if he wins beyblade or not he will spend ages competing...then when he goes off ds2 will continue alone......therefore if i can i will use this 'toy' to try and work on this 'win/lose' problem as i can join in with him easily...the playstation is a difficult one to 'control' as you need to be as able as the child to join in otherwise they all but snatch the controller away before you 'ruin' their progress- or as ds3 does you can just sit ther wildly pressing any button - which drives ds2 MAD....as he does evrything by the book- so if ds3 is randomly pressing buttons AND appears to be doing well ds2 CANNOT stand it!

[SPACLINE]

My eldest is 6 & we finally got a diagnosis this afternoon-ADHD & lower scale of ASD.Its taken years to get someone to give us this label!Anyway we have to cope with the coming first all the time with him.Its okay within the family as we can let him have his way but has anyone any idea how to explain or get other kids & adults to cope with him without explaining his medical problem????Hes very high functioning & so we've never even mentioned anything to him,also because we've never had an actual label before either.

[mrsforgetful]

Me Again! I have had to work on this constantly with Leigh- at the point now where i can peruade him to allow someone to be first- explained the 'someone has to be first and someone last' and adapted it to loads of situations like- who sits in the front in the car-who opens the gate to go out- all generally generate him wanting to do it.i got nowhere explaining feelings- so gave up on that- so i say things like 'You can have 3 more goes first...then alex has 3 goes firts 'etc. I bought a simple kitchen timer which is handy to time thes sessions.we also have "you go in the front carseat going to the shops and then your in the back coming home'

[littlemissbossy]

Having read all the info on AS, I'd like to ask mrsforgetful - does my DSS live in your house? We've been having him assessed for some time now, no firm answers yet although many things have been discussed including Aspergers. Having no knowledge of it, I have been leaving up to the professionals to come up with a diagnosis/statement for him but he is just like your son ... completely obsessed with computers/playstations, does not understand the concept of taking turns, must always, always win and had no comprehension of empathy (although we have, of late, had some improvement in this area). How do you cope? We have found it very hard over the years, he is now 13. Will we ever see light at the end of the tunnel?

[artistmum]

This is one my son struggles with too. While he is extremely eager to win, I seem to have got it under control, most of the time anyway, with help of a very simple kids game (which has also improved his concentration). It's called frustration, and is marketed by MB Games. Its quite a rugged plastic gameboard (has survived my son's use, which is remarkable), and the dice is in a sealed unit, so cannot be lost, eaten, or cheated with.

The game is very simple, move your pieces around the board, first person with all 4 pieces home wins. Players can take others off the board to help them win, (which thrills son). Its good because children and adults of varying abilities can play together easily, as its more down to throw of the dice than strategy. (This is very, very important to my son, because it means he doesn't feel he played badly if he loses, just that he was unlucky, a very important distinction).

As he has never been able to play a game before without serious meltdowns if things don't go his way, it's quite a breakthrough. Ok, he does still growl, scowl & bare his teeth if he loses, but he's not attacking anyone, having a meltdown, or breaking the game ...and he'll play again to try and win.

[mrsforgetful]

LITTLEMISSBOSSY- its great to know we have alot in common! I will post properly tomorrow....but what i find most hard to cope with is my husband undoing all the 'hard work' i put in with the boys. I think it's largely because he is probably Asperger's too.....as he already has one son by his 1st marriage with AS....

Basically most of the time i 'parent' in an Asperger's way.....and as my husband has a different perspective on everything- he cannot do the same. He is unable to 'put himself in another's place' so cannot see how his behaviour affects anyone else....just like asperger's children.

Another 'mountain' is that i have 3 boys and so far only the older 2 are on the 'spectrum' (though leigh has no diagnosis yet)....so people (including teachers/parents and friends) compare leigh to thomas and say that leigh cannot be asperger's as he's not like thomas- my take on this is that i have 2 kids both asperger's but with different strengths and weaknesses.....thomas is less literal than leigh, yet has worse 'personal/social' skills. Leigh is very sporty (but has to win)....thomas has poor motor skills so can be clumsy and finds sports hard.

I'm even wondering about Alex lately- but for now i am not telling anyone but you 'few!!!!' on MumsNet!!!

[englishrose]

I'm new to MN and just wanted to say 'Hi'
I have 3 children, my oldest is my only son and he's 6.5yrs old and he has mild AS, we're just still waiting for an official Autism Asessment - stuck on that everlasting waiting list!
He was assessed by an EP in YR after 3 mths after he started school because of big trouble settling into school, behavioural problems, running away from classroom etc.
I researched and read loads and he definitely fits the AS profile and DS makes a lot of sense now I know the reason for the way he behaves and reacts in certain situations, tho' he continues to surprise us.

It's wonderful to come across other mums with AS kids, one of the hardest things is working out when DS is just being normal 6yrold boy and when something is because of his condition.

By the way, yes I have the competition/being first problem but not quite as extreme as some of you. I'm not sure I have any helpful advice but I deal with it somehow. Eg. he always wants his plate of food brought to table first or wants to know 'whose I am dishing up/preparing first, second, last etc'. Always has to get to the front door first on way home from school.
I'll have to pay attention to what I do and report back.

[mrsforgetful]

englishrose- HI! I'm the one who started this thread- made alot of progress with the 'being first' stuff....but any hints very welcome!

Welcome to our 'cosy corner' too!