HELP PLEASE TWO AND A HALF YEARS OF NO SLEEP

[tiggyhop]

In a nutshell: 3rd child (dd). Aged 2 and a half. Has never slept through consistently. I am at the end of my tether.

2 issues: (i) she will not go to bed and (ii) she will not stay in her bed.

to address (i) we put her back in bed 53 times in an hour and a half period (no eye contact etc, straight back in); things improved slightly for a few nights, kept up the strategy until we realised that she thought it was a game. To address (ii) I return her to her bed anything up to around 4-5 times a night in the middle of the night, only saying you can come in when it is light.

Am now trying star chart, but she cannot get a star to get going because she is so horrendous. Every night she is up and down pottering around until about 9.30 when she finally goes to sleep (in her bed or sneaks into our bed). Ignoring her simply means she potters around for hours. Threatening to shut the door/hold it shut means that she has a huge tantrum. Then when she finally sleeps she is up again in the night waking us up.

Instinctively I think that we have to do the putting back no eye contact thing but she thinks it is a game. Are there any other strategies anyone can suggest? She has no milk during the night (that was a problem for a long time but we have sorted that although she will still ask occasionally). Should we put her in with her two brothers (5 and 3?). Please help me

[TeaDr1nker]

Do you have a bed time routine with her?

Your instincts are probably right, how long did you follow your plan for? It can take up to four weeks of being consistent for your child to respond - although most respond much sooner than this.

Also look up Millpond Sleep Clinic, although their book recomends what you have done, they also suggest that you firmly tell your child what you expect of her now ie to stay in bed, they suggest that each time you DD gets up you take her straight back to bed and firmly say again what you expect of her.

Be firm and consistent, the reward/star chart is a great idea too.

[lljkk]

I hate to say this, but most people I know with similar problem have locked them in (after checking on them a first time each hour).

Personally, I would put her in with her brothers before I'd try locking in. I have a mix of 2 boys + 1 girl age 3-8, and they are only happy away from me if they share with each other.

[cestlavie]

God, sounds tough, but it sounds like you're doing everything right and being consistent with her. Unfortunately, it also sounds like getting any attention (even silent straight back to bed treatment) is all she wants.

Just a couple of thoughts. Firstly, can you make an incremental star-chart, e.g. if she is quiet for an hour after going to bed she gets one star, if she only wakes you twice in the night she gets one star - setting her and your sights a bit lower to get her going. Secondly, can you get a gate for her door, so she can still see what's going on if she needs to but is kept securely in her room. It may be that having the door closed makes her feel cut off/ scared/ alone.

Final thought, DD (just over 2) went through a shocking phase about 3-4 months ago of screaming, making herself sick, staying up for hours at bedtime, pretty much out of nowhere. Nothing we could do with the old routine was working (although it had worked for about a year) so we ended up just ripping it up and doing a whole new routine, asking her what she wanted (within reason, e.g. story before bed on beanbag, story in bed, milk when she got into bed) and went with that and it sorted itself out very quickly. Sometimes, I think, you can all get stuck into set ways of thinking/ doing things.

[bubblagirl]

not sure how to help my ds 3 nearly and very rarely goes all night in his own bed

we have a ready bed on our floor next to our bed we have managed to get him to sleep 4 out of 7 nights in his own room

you can go to hv who can get a sleep therapist to come work with you i had one help me but ds has speech delay and we felt that was moree important as his understanding wasnt great

has improved and he does great but if unwell he will only sleep till about 11 in his own bed straight to ready bed

we used to read story then i had to sit with my back to him until asleep no contact at all ignoring or every now and then sshh its sleep time

every night move further away sleep therapist said untill they can learn to settle themselves to sleep they will not go all night

so had to sit on floor whenever he woke ignoring him took about 5 mins in the end to settle him off

gradually move further away but maybe once a week so they can get used to it then gradually you will be outside bedroom door but if child gets really upset then there not ready for that move yet so sit inside door

then just walk away see how long you can be gone before dd creates then ssshhh sleep sit back on floor as soon as you can leave with no fuss then she will learn to fall asleep alone and should be able to settle herself off in the night

does she have nigh light put cup of water in bed with her another thing i was told and also weird but a slice of toast before bed it did work he slept for longer once in bed

no more than 10 mins for story aim for 7.30 sleep it did all work well and as i say were at 4 nights better than no nights and rest of time on ready bed on our floor if he palys up i say your bed or ready bed go to sleep and if he does mess about a take him through to his room crying then i say if you can be good you go on reafdy bed then he is as good as gold when put back in

good luck sleep therapist was great for help

[bubblagirl]

oh yes sleep therapist said star chart for his age he was same age as your dd at time wouldnt work as they dont really understand it we had smily face instead so when in bed for story time smily face as in own bed

when laying down smily face for laying down then you say go to sleep and stay in bed and you get another smily face then read story no conversation hope it helps you the way it did for me it is so tiring but does get better

[tiggyhop]

Thank you all so much for your comments, I could weep! Someone at the door, I'll post again in a minute

[tiggyhop]

She has a bed time routine etc., but I like the idea of tearing it up and writing a new one. I am conscious that many people give up on strategies too soon but I really don't think we have: we persevered with the putting back for weeks. It is only now that we have reached the end of our tether. I am going to seriously think about putting her in with the boys. Any more thoughts out there?

[cestlavie]

Why do you think putting her in with her brothers will help her? Do you think she wants company/ entertainment, and if she does, will that not simply disturb them?

[CarGirl]

I think most children think rapid return is a game, but unfortunately you cracked first!!!!!!! I would go back to rapid return and see it through to the bitter end, I would also recommend a cranial osteopath check her out. I put up with a poor sleeper who could wake 3 or 4 times per night for nights on the trot and a few visits to CO and she now sleeps much better indeed. (absolutely no sleep issues she just used to wake up and come and check if it was morning yet then struggle to get back to sleep)

[tiggyhop]

Cestlavie makes a very good point: I have no idea why I think putting her in with the boys will help, some desperate notion that she will somehow learn from them what appropriate night time behaviour is?

Cargirl: I agree with the point you make, but I genuinely do not think we cracked first. We started Rapid Return in November. The first night we did it 53 times between 7.30 and 9 pm, then 8 times at midnight, then 6 times at 3, then once at 6 am. We continued to do it for at least 4 weeks (we were down to around 10 times on the first occasion then 4-5 times a night) until she kept asking - you sit in the chair outside the room and making a big thing of it, at which point we thought we would simply ignore her, but then she sneaks around the house. We can't put a gate over her door because she would climb over it. DH won't consider locking her in (I would). A cranial osteopath is a good idea but I am in the states, I will see if they have them here. I really appreciate your thoughts

[bubblagirl]

well iw ould def ask for sleep therapist to help out and they will give you a plan as they did for my ds it helped to have a full plan from someone who knows

it has taken us aong time but we were happy with progress made and were happy for him if waking to go on ready bed as his room is really noisy anyway

and even sleep therapist felt until he was able to understand noises would be best to put him into his own bed to start so he knows that it is his room but to allow him to come into ours now he does manage 4 out of 7 nights and its so great but even if he does wake only have to pp him in ready bed and thats it

[CarGirl]

tiggyhop but it does sound about control????? Not a game but she wants to be in control of the situation, somehow you have to take back control - no idea how to do that though.

One of my friends dds did the whole being sick and screaming until her mum gave in (which she always did in the end) and it was still going on when she was 5..........

How about co-sleeping, perhaps she just doesn't like being on her own?

[MinkyBorage]

Had you thought about putting her back in a cot? I was sorely tempted with my DD who was pretty bad, similar to yours, but not quite so difficult. Things have improved here fpr the time being, but nothing I can tke credit for, so no good advice I'm afraid. Good luck, it's relly wearing isn't it?!!!

[SpecialSlubbers]

tiggy you could have been me 6 months ago. Almost identical post from me with dd2 (then 2.5 ish). dh and I were almost beside ourselves with sleep deprivation, and I was becoming a not good mummy.

what worked for us was

(i) she gets a choice

BED

or

DOOR: she gets put in the empty spare bedroom, lights v v v low (so not pitch dark), door held shut.

cue screaming +++++

then she gets a choice

"BED OR DOOR?"

After several attempts at choosing nowt (default result = shut behind door), she chooses BED.

Every now and then she will try it on, she gets to choose 'bed or door' she chooses bed.

Sounds harsh but we tried EVERYTHING and this was the only thing that worked.

(ii) moved her into bedroom with big sister. Stopped night wakings, crying, messing about virtually overnight.

hth

[bubblagirl]

riven find out who your community nursery nurse is and she will either be sleep therapis tor work alongside my gp refferred me to sleep therapist and speech therapist for my ds

[bubblagirl]

sleep therapist did suggest stair gate up at bedroom ut my ds stopped playing in his room and would not go near it so she said to stop that as he then had a fear of his bedroom but i know my brother has stair gate up at his 3 yr old girls room and works fine

[bubblagirl]

another thing sorry i got my ds to help me change his room round where did he want bed ect

found he no longer liked the dark so we leave hall light on got him thomas lamp and he wanted a torch that shone stars on wall so if he woke he would play with the torch

found as soon as room was changed he slept better straight away

[tiggyhop]

I really really appreciate all this everyone - bubblagirl many thanks for sharing your experiences - and also specialslubbers. I am certainly not a good mum at the moment, I have just had too much of all this, I am not exaggerating when I say that she has not slept properly since she was born (first time she ever slept through the night was when she was 2.2). I am starting to label her as the difficult one etc., all things that I don't want to do.

[tiggyhop]

Re putting her back in a cot, she climbs out (even out of the huge cot we have). She is extremely advanced physically (not tall but very athletic) - so stair gate on her door is a no go - she would climb over and that would be dangerous because she would be very near the bannister for the landing /stairs.
Thanks for suggestion about lights, we need to look at this too. Am going to have a good think about all your suggestions.

[bubblagirl]

well i'll dig out sheet of advise i was given and will write it out for you tomorrow i have sleep therapy leaflet she gave me

[kiera]

my ds1 would not stay in his bed either once he progressed to the toddler bed (at just over 2 years old). we tried the techniques you describe and had no effect. so we resorted to putting a cabin hook on his door so he could see out not open the door. resulted in huge tantrums and upset of course and I felt very guilty when he fell asleep curled up on the floor behind the door a couple of times but in a very short time he got the message and now we only have to mention putting the lock on and he behaves so it is a good deterrant. we did the same thing if he got up in the middle of the night also and would not stay put. now he is 4 1/2 and we have some lights rigged up to a timer that come on at 7am and he knows he is not allowed to get up until his lights come on (unless ill/bad dream/wet/needs the loo/whatever). he actually won't get up unless the lights are on now!