Fellow co-sleepers, please advise on start-of-the-night hell :o(

[eggybreadandbeans]

Hi all

I've been co-sleeping with ds (26 months) in his room since we moved house in May.

For the most part, I love co-sleeping - throughout the night, it works fine. But since we moved, settling ds at bedtime has gone from taking 15 minutes, then half-an-hour, and more - and last night, I was with him from 7.45pm until 10.15pm. And I got hit, kicked and bitten - all semi-playfully, and nothing like sweet ds during the day, but totally demoralising all the same.

My mum recently had ds for the evening, and said ds was asleep by 7.15pm laying next to her. So I've clearly somehow let things get the way they have.

I absolutely need some evening time to pursue my hobbies and have time with dp and friends. But our evenings now completely revolve around trying to settle ds: I lay next to him, the odd pat or stroke or shhh, in his quiet, dark room. And he climbs on me, hits me, kicks me, throws pillows around the room, climbs on/off the bed, etc. I'm feeling resentful, which isn't good for any of us. (Ds actually says, "Are you feeling frustrated, Mum? Are you very cross?" )

He's gone from getting 11 hours sleep a night and a two-hour nap to being chronically over-tired because he's going to sleep so late.

So, while I'm happy to sneak back into ds's room at my bedtime to co-sleep for the night, I can't continue with evenings like this. I don't want to leave ds to cry, but after this recent hitting/kicking started, I have toyed with putting a stair gate across his door and sitting out of arm's reach the other side, reading a book next to the night light in the hall. That way I'd be really close still, and visible, but would be showing him there's a consequence to hitting Mum. Would this be horrible?!

I'm not sure about reward systems but have been tempted to try one ... is there anything else I can try that might enable ds to go to sleep peacefully and relatively quickly?

Thank you

Frazzled EBAB

[MrsApron]

Cut out the nap - seriously - I had this with mine and I was going beserk. No nap - 12 hours a night and genrally down to sleep in about 15 mins.

bet he didn't have a two hour nap at your mums!

[melrose]

My DS is same asge and I have taken to waking him after 1 hour of napping. Result is a grumpy 2 year old for 10 mins, but bit of distraction (usually in a food form!) and he is fine. He is now tired out for bed asleep in no time. I used to have to stay with him, but now milk, into cot and say goodnight and he settles straight down

[FullOfTestosterone]

Hi there!
I supposed I am not qualified to respond your question, since I kind of co-sleep...
I co-slep when DS was young, but around 6 months I started to put him down in the crib, and only bring him to bed when he woke up in the middle of the night, and now he is (knock on wood...) waking mostly aroound 5Am and nursing and napping until 7Am.

It sounds like the way out of thi is perhaps to start a bedtime routine of some sort, with lots of reassurance that you'll back later?

I imagine whatever you do will be responded with protest, so it might be worth thinking where you want to be in (say) a year from now. So, what you do now will be inline with where you want to be ultimately?

Sorry, I 'm not helpinbg very much but my natural instinct would be to slowly "wean" him/her of my presence to fall asleep, but I totaly understand thet you may not...

[blueshoes]

EBAB, our los like to try it on, don't they! It is so unfair that they settle for grandma but not for us.

My dd 2.10 was taking 1-2 hours of fannying around in bed with me/dh beside her to fall asleep - with us taking turns to leave the room (she gets really upset) and issuing dire warnings, combined with her tantrumming. We decided that she was just not tired enough. So agree with other posters about cutting the naps. In dd's case, she naps in nursery so we have not much control over that. But then we pushed back her bedtime by 1 hour from 8 pm to 9 pm. Which means that whilst previously, we used to eat after dd had gone to bed, now she joins us for dinner - not eating, mind you, but just sits with us, in between trying to get our attention and pulling us off the dining table lol.

But now she generally only takes 15 mins to settle and without the stalling tactics.

I never really thought to try rewards and am too soft to persist with hardline measures. Dd can outlast both of us with blood on the walls - and she is too set in her demands to fall for rewards more than once or twice. Could be that dd is needing less sleep or that her speech is taking off or new baby's imminent arrival. But we are still co-sleeping happily, just that we had to adjust her bedtime.

But I certainly won't look forward to the day I have to postpone her bedtime even later! This is pretty much the limit for dh and I.

[PrettyCandles]

I'm not convinced that dutting the nap will make him any easier to put to bed. My 3yo dd is currently napping, as she does most days. I find that if she misses the nap more than once or twice a week, or if it is regularly cut short, then she gets very ratty in the evenings and is harder to settle at night. The same held for my ds, who only gave up napping when he started Reception, and even now, at nearly 6, has a nap at the weekend to help him recharge.

I would recommend having a look at the Baby Whisperer books and trying some of her techniques. It doesn't need to mean the end of co-sleeping, but, as your ds has shown that he can settle perfectly well with your mum, I think he is trying it on with you, and what he needs to learn is that bedtime is bedtime, and that you will not be dictated to and mucked about.

[melrose]

blueshoes, re: nursery, my DS is there too, I just asked thwm to wake him up after an hour, which they were quiate happt to do

[MagicGenie]

Hello EBAB

I recently posted about my DS's nipping and biting. You replied with such a supportive message to me, I wanted to try and do the same for you

We don't co-sleep so no advice specific to that but I think it might be worth trying to encourage him to drop off on his own, or with you nearby/upstairs/pottering about in the next room (please don't read that as me being anti co-sleeping cos I'm not!)

The reason I say this is that my DS likes a bit of 'space' when he's going to sleep (as long as he's had his usual routine of bath, milk, stories, cuddle). If he's not quite tired enough to sleep straight away, he has a chinwag to himself/his toys and then drops off.

If he's overtired/teething/grumpy it's a different story, admittedly, but if I'm there for too long, it can keep him awake (stimulates him, I think, rather than relaxes him). And I think if I'm lingering about too long, he wonders what's up and starts to think he should be awake!

I wonder whether the 'behaviour' you're describing is a roundabout way of asking you for a bit of space. The challenge of provoking you into some sort of reaction by messing about and hitting/kicking has obviously become too tempting for him, so I think you need to be strong and nip that in the bud.

Can't put my finger on why but you don't seem like a reward chart type of person.....(random judgement there, but that's what I feel!) and my gut instinct is that a stair gate with you at the other side may freak him out.

Could you say something like, 'Mummy's just going to the toilet', or 'Mummy's going next door for a minute to get XYZ' and leave him with a book/toy? Pop in every 5 mins til he settles and then lay down with him?

[lazycow]

I don't actually co-sleep but I do lie down with ds to get him to sleep and it is taking me longer and longer to settle him. (getting on for 1-2 hrs most nights).

Dh on the other hand can settle him within 30 mins - usually less. This has nothing to do with ds needing less sleep - just that he knows he can get away with more with me. On the days he goes to sleep much later than 8pm I get a screaming bashee of a son who won't eat lunch as he is so tired by 11am that he is impossible and who then sleeps over 3 hours in the afternoon in a vain attempt to make up for being so tired - I say vain becaus he is usually still grumpy in the afternoon after waking.

My presence stimulates him and keeps him awake. Nowadays I have to call in the cavalry in the form of dh after about an hour - ds screams as if I've killed him for exactly 30 secs while dh walks him around and then generally falls asleep within 10 mins. Honestly this is the child who before I call dh in looks wide awake- chatting, smiling etc. Yet he is actually really tired - just doesn't look it - evidenced by the fact that is is asleep in minutes when I leave him to dh.

I think dh has a pretty strict routine with ds and also isn't afraid to let him cry for a few minutes.


I have to say I prefer dh's calm consistency to my own rather sentimental 'I can't let him cry, 'let's try bfeeding yet again' (though I know it never works to get him to sleep), through cuddling, ignoring etc to finally getting exaspewrated as ds seems to be about to drop off only to have his eyey spring open and start playing all over again.

I am going to have to revise my routine - so will watch this thread for ideas.

[eggybreadandbeans]

Thanks all. MagicGenie, thanks for your post ... we weren't dealing with biting when I responded to yours!

MG and lazycow, I do wonder about the me-overstimulating-son thing. When ds was four months old, we tried everything to settle him - endless breastfeeding, white noise, gentle rocking, swaddling, etc. It turned out he was able to switch off much more quickly and painlessly without us. But not so since the move ...

I too am not sure about the shortened nap either, because it's normal and natural to take a good nap in the afternoon. And we do have a fairly consistent bedtime routine. We have just had a very disruptive summer since the move, and this new bedtime habit has become part of it.

If dp and I are both home, ds only wants me. So we have wondered about me popping out in the evenings for a week or two and dp settling ds, to try to change the habit - although he's not that much better with dp, tbh.

We've tried the just-popping-to-get/do-something thing, and ds just charges up out of the room to find us (we're in a bungalow). So if we're in there, he dives all over us (mostly) playfully, and if we leave the room, he follows us. Argh!

I'm not sure about star charts, and you're right, the stair gate idea will probably freak him out. But as it is he's running the household!

Well, telly time is ending and bath needs running - let's see how we go tonight!

Thanks, all. EBAB

[MagicGenie]

Right - I'd totally missed the fact that you've moved house. Duh! Your DS being unable to settle is a symptom of something....feeling unsettled in the new place might be it.

Probably obvious this, but have you thought about doing stuff to make him feel more comfortable/at home in his new bedroom? Maybe you could involve him in choosing something new (bedding/curtains/furnishings) so he's got some 'ownership' of the room.

Or is there room to change the furniture around a bit? To a way he prefers it?

Another thing; if my DS is a bit worked up and needs settling, we sometimes go around his cuddly toys and give them all a kiss and cuddle night-night. Sounds daft but really works...he wants to make sure all his little 'friends' go to sleep and it works as a signal to him that it's sleep time as well. (Lazycow, would this work for you?) Could backfire and 'stimulate' him though, possibly.

[mimoyello]

eggy - I find that my DS (25 months) gets very hyper if we are in his room !

We have sort of "trained" him from around 10 months that we will leave his room after 30 mins or so and leave lots of safe toys in his bed to play with. I still breastfeed, so after his last feed I put him in his cot at 8pm, but he doesn't actually fall asleep until 10 - 10.30 pm, depending on how long his nap has been during the day.

I know he would fall asleep earlier if I cut out his long day time nap, but when he doesn't have his nap he gets very very tired by around 6pm. He has actually fallen asleep on his high chair at around 6pm while eating his dinner on days when he has had no nap, so I know he defo. needs some rest during the day (and so do I !!)

I think may be try leaving him after a bed time story and hugs, kisses, leave toys and books in his cot and only go in if he starts crying.

Good luck !

[eggybreadandbeans]

Progress report ...

Had lovely story and snuggles and "talk about my day" time with ds this evening. Beforehand, I'd explained that I didn't like hitting/kicking/biting and that we don't hurt people, and asked ds what he thought we should do if he did it again. He said I should go up to the kitchen. So we shook hands, explained what a deal was, etc. And then nice snuggle time began ...

And then, while ds was diving about, he thought he'd test me with a gentle-ish hit. I could see by his face that he was testing me. I gently reminded him of our deal, and said night night and that I was off to the kitchen.

He got out of bed twice, and we escorted him back. And then he went to sleep by 7.50pm, with only a brief, minor protest (not a distressed cry). We're in a bungalow, and there is no stair gate or anything stopping him coming through to us (he's in a bed), but he didn't. So he must have been exhausted and went to sleep by himself.

I'm AMAZED! And delighted. And suspicious that it was a fluke! But we'll see ...

Thanks for all your ideas/support.

Happy EBAB about to do some picture-framing ...

[MagicGenie]

Sounds hopeful!! Fingers crossed that you've cracked it.

Happy framing

(PS I hope my DS is as articulate/quick to catch on as yours sounds when he's 26 months!!)

[katesa]

Have just read this thread and whilst it sounds like you might have cracked it I thought I would add my bit. I also had an increasing problem with our ds at about 26 months (he is now 3 1/2) and I found that dropping the midday nap worked very well. However, after a few months the problem crept back again and we then used a more concrete bedtime routine (supper, bath, tv for a bit, stories, bed) which really helped as he knew what to expect and knew after a while not to protest as there was no choice. Until then he had never had a routine and he responded fantastically. Often I (or dH) stayed with him until he went to sleep but if this took too long we said goodnight gently and left. If he came out of the room we calmy escorted him back.
He is now on a mattress on a our floor and either falls asleep quite quickly or we leave him and he chats for a bit and then falls asleep. I also found that increasing the amount of physical acitivity he had during the day made a big difference. As baby brother arrived in march it is now difficult to leave him as baby is often asleep in bed so as of thurs we are trying to move him into his own room. He seems enthusiastic about the idea but who knows... Good luck.

[eggybreadandbeans]

Good luck katesa! And thanks for advice. We do have a fairly predictable bedtime routine, but I reckon we could increase ds's physical activity, and finally get some curtains up so the house can be a bit dimmer in the run-up to bedtime! At the moment it's as light and bright as anything all day.

So far so good tonight at least - ds still asleep at 11.36pm. I'm off to clean my teeth and join him in a mo. Fingers crossed tomorrow's just as good ...

Thanks all. Night. EBAB

[katesa]

Thanks. Agree on curtains - also found that putting up black-out curtains in summer when still so light at night made a big difference.

[lazycow]

Right after reading all this - I think we have to bite the bullet and go back to a very predictable routine at night again. We did it for a while but it seems to have slipped if I'm honest, we still do all the same stuff but it varies a bit in the order and what we do etc -

It is my fault really as routine and me are not the best of friends usually - but I'm sure it will help - it usually does with ds !!

(Thanks Magicgenie - will try that - ds loves putting his toys to bed at the moment)