How do we choose between poor local secondaries and superb ones an hour away for DS (currently year 5)?

[AThousandApples]

We have a DS (year 5) with whom we're looking at secondary schools ready for applying for a place in the autumn. We're starting looking now because we don't have terribly good options, so we have quite a bit of weighing up to do.

All the secondary schools within a few miles of us are below average (in terms of GCSE performance). The best (and nearest) one is considered in need of improvement by Ofsted. The up-shot of this school is that it's nearby, and DS could get there easily and increasingly independently, as well as back home while I'm at work. If he stayed to do an after-school club, it would be relatively straightforward for him to get home while I'm at work (a grandparent could pick him up for example), or for me to fetch him afterwards. And with the short journey time, he'd have a life! Enough time to sleep, wind down, etc.

The problem is, Ofsted considers that this school is letting down brighter pupils; it isn't teaching to their needs, and they risk not fulfilling their potential. DS is fairly switched-on. He's already working at Level 6 in a couple of core subjects, and will be sitting Level 6 SATs papers in 2015. I've never been pushy with him - just taught him to do his best and give everything 100%, and that's good enough for me. But I do want him to achieve what he's capable of in his schooling, and my concern is that at one of our local secondaries, he won't be stretched and will lose interest and motivation, and possibly lower his ideas of what 'doing well' looks like.

There are some massively-better-performing secondaries in a city about an hour away, and increasingly, kids from our community seem to be applying for places in these schools - and more often than not, getting them (most of DS's closest friends are likely to go to these). The schools are more academic and achieve much better GCSE results, and also seem to be strong with pastoral care too. Academically, they seem a better fit for DS. But he'd need to spend a few hours a day on a bus (unsupervised). He'd need to be catching said bus earlier than we currently get out of bed!

And logistically with work, it would be a nightmare if he did an after-school club and therefore missed the bus home; he'd have to hang around for over an hour before I could fetch him. He'd make friends further afield, so there'd be a lot of us driving him to see mates. And I just worry that he'd be knackered from the travel and early starts, and mightily grumpy from the lack of time for himself (he's very autonomous and absolutely thrives on having plenty of time to do his own thing).

Obviously we'll be visiting these schools throughout the year to weigh up our options, and of course we may not get our preferred choice anyway; but since at this stage we do have a choice, I'd be interested to hear what others might decide (or even have decided) in the same situation. What other things should we be considering? How have things worked out for your DC in a similar scenario?

Grades really aren't the be all and end all, I realise that. Most of all, I want DS to be content and to feel like he actually has a life still beyond the increasing busyness and demands of the school day. But I do want him to fulfill his personal academic potential, for his own self-confidence and his future.

WWYD?

Many thanks for any advice.

[FrancesHB]

We're a year behind you but in just the same position. At the moment we're leaning towards local school with a move at 6th form, for all your reasons. But I'm v worried naturally.

[EarlGreyCuppa]

I sympathise as we're in yr 6 and have just finalised our "choices" for September.

You've not mentioned your housing arrangements at all - do you rent or own? Would you consider moving to the nearby city? I appreciate a move would be difficult regardless of whether you rent or own, but you have time before the end of this coming Oct and the deadline for secondary school applications. Also, just because currently kids from your area get into those city-schools, depending on catchments and numbers applying etc. it may not be the case for your DS.

Imho long commutes are tricky for some whilst others enjoy the time to (possibly) wind down. It depends on whether your DS would face many transport changes along the way etc. And whilst he will be young when he starts in yr7, he'll be older and stronger as he goes through the years. We know kids who need to be out of the house by 7 to get to school, it's not easy but many do such journeys.

Good luck with it all.

[clary]

Could you move nearer the school you favour?

I don't have experience of your situation as a parent but (sort of) as a child. My commute to secondary was about 40 mins, and what's more, the catchment for the school (rural area, grammar school) meant that friends often lived as far in the other direction. It wasn't a good thing - the vast majority of my school friends were people I never saw out of school, never went to their homes etc.

IMO a commute such as you describe would be unworkable. Also would you have any chance of getting a place at a school 30+ miles away? Do you live in an especially rural area?

FWIW the fantastic (in many many ways) school where I work is RI; I really o think we enable students to achieve their potential. What are the reasons your local schools are RI? If it's about teaching and pastoral care then I would be concerned; if it's about the results of a specific year group (for example) then I might not think it mattered so much.

[Marmitelover55]

I did a 60 mile round trip to secondary school for 3 years and wouldn't recommend it. I never went to any after school activities and also missed things like the annual Carol Service. If you can move closer that would seem the best option and is what my parents did eventually.

[FiscalCliffRocksThisTown]

Could you move?

We moved to be in catchment of good secondaries, when kids were 6! It was a big factor, but meant DH had to commute an hour.

[meditrina]

What are the entrance criteria for the city schools? Are the local children you know winning selective places or is it jut that they had in recent years enough places (and few enough applicant) to have massive admissions footprints?

If the latter, has the local Council made any predictions about size of cohort for next year? (Trend is for increase, though some areas say they have enough places).

Is the bus service direct? If so, then even a long journey should be ok. But how would he get there if there were strikes or if the bus just idn't show up one day?

[17leftfeet]

We had this dilemma with dd now in yr 8

Local school has average to poor GCSE results, below target added value score

School further away has excellent GCSE results but the bus is at 7.05 and picks up a 20 minute walk away
No late school bus so any activities mean 2 buses home with a change at rush hour in a busy city centre

We spoke to the local school and it turned out there was a large transient population and a number of traveller families so the children at GCSE were not the same as those that started the school so the value added score was an unfair measure

Also because ofsted had flagged that the more able were not reaching their potential it was a real focus for the school

We went with the local school in the end, largely for social reasons and its worked out brilliantly

Dd finished yr7 on level 7s for maths, science and IT, and level 6 across the board for her other academic subjects
I've barely seen her this holiday as the majority of her friends are within walking distance

She's obviously yet to reach GCSE but I'm really pleased with our decision

Some of her primary friends went to the school further away and spent yr7 in an exhausted fog!

[HolidayCriminal]

I considered a far away posh private girl's secondary for DD (she got L6s); over my dead body would I allow my 12yo to commute 2.5 hrs/day. She has a mate (live locally) who switched from the far away school to where DD is now; couldn't hack the commute, either.

Look at the local schools' & city schools' performance & inspection reports 6 or 12 yrs ago.
I suggest this because you don't have a crystal ball & schools change a lot. The most Desirable school 6-9 yrs ago in our local group now has the worst results. it looks like parents who bet on that Desirable school made the wrong choice, yet they did choose on the best info available. And plenty of individual kids still do very well there.

What do local parents say about the local schools; do you know any parents of high achievers at them, and how do these parents feel about their experience? Nearest high school has headline GCSE pass rates around 42%, I speak to lots of parents of very clever kids who are very pleased with this school.

[Thingsthatmakeyougohmmmm]

Hello, just thought I would add my thoughts having been the teen involved once upon a time. My partners opted for the poor but close by secondary school for me (with the very best intentions) but I must admit it has massively shaped my life and some of the biggest problems I am having to overcome now in my mod thirties I feel are partly due to the school I attended (bitter? Yes!). The expectations of the pupils, and their parents at that school were very low. The teachers tried but they were battling against a culture of a poor seaside town where a handful in GCSE's at grade D were seen as all you needed and no push for anything further. University was seen as something 'other people did' and not relevant to us. There were a few 'superstar' pupils who were pushed to their limits and treated as 'poster boys' for the school, but if you were averagely clever, with potential that needed pushing out, it just didn't happen. Honestly a secretary's job was seen as high flying when I left that school. Boys left and worked in a factory and the girls in care homes. It hasn't changed much in the last 15 years. The friends I made there and their families also tarnished my outlook despite my parents working hard to show my wider opportunities and horizon. Some of the people and their families are very lovely good kind people and I don't mean to put them down. But they are happy for generations and generations of them to work minimum wage and have babies very young and live in the same town with men down the pub for the rest of their life. If they are happy great, but I wanted more, but the school and society surrounding it, normalised this life to me as am impressionable 15 year old. Yes I know I am in control of my own life but I didn't understand all these things at 15. I know I sound snobby but honestly this impacts on me nearly every day still!

[Thingsthatmakeyougohmmmm]

Sorry for typos and grammar (on phone)

[Sunnymeg]

I think you need to find out how likely it is you would get a place if you applied using your current address. The last two/three years for secondary school allocation were of children of low birth years and the school probably wasn't full on catchment numbers. Once you have this information, you can then make qualified decisions about what you want to do.

[littledrummergirl]

Ds1 leaves home at 7am to travel to his outstanding grammar school. He stays for clubs a couple of times a week which means that he needs to be collected. He has only missed the school bus home once.
His friends all live many miles apart so we do have to take and collect him, however xbox has proved to be a very good friend. They often arrange to play together and talk on the headsets.
This was the right decision for ds1, he loves his life and is doing well. He also does a sporting activity outside of school, minimum 4hrs a week so he doesnt feel that he only has school in his life.
Ds2 brought a different challenge. Grammar school wasnt for him and our catchment school is apalling.
We looked at schools in the area and decided against the perceived best school in the area because the margins of results, although better had to be weighed up against the effects of travelling etc and we decided that he wouldnt gain anything.
We opted for a school within walking distance for him which was in special measures at the time.
There was a new head in place and the atmosphere was totally different to when we viewed it with ds1.
Ds2 is really happy and doing well, it was definitely the right decision for him.
The school is now rated good.
Look at all the schools before you make your decision, start now so you have time to see them all. Listen to what the leadership team has to say and talk to the students.
You have to do the right thing for your dc.

[Martorana]

My daughter is at a school 15 miles away. She can get a train home if she stays at school no later than about 5.30 - any later than that I have to collect her. And if she has a party at the weekend or a rehearsal or a match at the weekend I have to take her. And her best friend lives 15 miles in the other direction- so a 60 mile round trip away.

I drove nearly 200 miles this weekend. If there is any other option, don't do it. What seems manageable with a year 7 becomes a logistical nightmare with an older teenager with interests and a social life.

[Nocomet]

Take the nearest school.

We are in a rural area with no public transport, there are no schools where the DDs aren't tied to council school buses.

Therefore every sports fixture, drama rehearsal, revision class and most days during DD1's upcoming GCSEs I'm a bloody taxi.

I have no idea how working parents cope. DD days the teachers have been taking some DCs home after revision classes. It's a total pita.

As for Ofsted and how the school teaches different ability groups?

Well - in DD1's 5 years at secondary her school has been "Good with outstanding features, satisfactory, in SM and Good again"

[fourcorneredcircle]

Go local for all the excellent reasons outlined above.

[lambbone]

My DH had a massive commute to his school. It was (and is) a school with a superb reputation, but he wishes he had gone to school in his own town, to a perfectly acceptable school, so he could have made local friends. As it was, in his teenage years, he felt like a stranger amongst his peers in his home town - not being a socially confident person who would find it easy to hang on to primary school friends.

Go local.

[Nocomet]

Yes, having to travel to meet friends is inevitable here and it means secondary school meet ups still have all the logistical nightmares of primary ones.

Sometimes the DDs do wish they could just walk or catch a bus. Rather than having to agree times when parents can take them round work and siblings activities.

[BackforGood]

I went to a grammar, caught the bus there, and friends came from a wide geographical area. My dcs all go to local schools they can walk to.
I can only echo the thoughts you've already had - having teens and working myself, it is an enormous benefit that the schools are only a mile and a half away - they get some fresh air and exercise every day; they get to 'put the world to rights' as they walk to and fro with their friends; when they stay late for something (or it's a cookery day or similar) it's logistically do-able to arrange to pick them up - or we're all close enough that other parents do this as well and share the lifts on the odd occasions they need them. As they have grown up (I have 3, eldest is in Upper6th) then all the socialising is walkable - ds, this year has been to loads of 18th birthday parties, and can walk back from them all, but even younger, they can meet up / do things in the holidays.
However neither of my older two have been 'stretched/challenged' at their schools (youngest is in Yr7 so not really got there yet). Maybe I have very high standards due to my experience at grammar, but I've been disappointed how much the brighter dc are allowed to 'drift'. There will be indignant teachers on here saying this doesn't happen at their schools, and I hope it's not across the board, but I can only say what we've experienced.
Overall, if the transport links are good, knowing what I know now, I think I'd send mine to somewhere where they were challenged more if I had my time again.

[Nocomet]

But would have been more challenged and more stretched, made them (and you) happier.

DD2 decided not to do the 11+ and sometimes I wish I'd made her (she is a bit lazy), but in truth is 7ys of 7am-6pm plus more HW and having to give up all your hobbies worth it for a tiny increase in grades.

Because for properly bright DCs that's all we are talking, the odd A instead of an A* a B for a French that they are never going to speak again in their lives.

If they get into a reasonable university and are happy does it matter.

Personally I'd rather they had a childhood and DH, me and her sister had a life that isn't curtailed by, but DD2 has HW in the holidays.

[Nocomet]

Also remember the research that state school DCs get better degrees.

My guess is they don't work harder and I bet they don't work longer hours than their private school contemporaries. My guess is they are far better at combining study and having a life.

[Bunbaker]

DD's school was "satisfactory" which nowadays is "requires improvement". We sent her there because it was the nearest and we couldn't afford the fees for private. Since she has been there the school is now "good" and on its way to outstanding. The GCSE results have shot up to 80% pass rate for 5 GCSEs including English and maths.

The head teacher is ambitious for the school and has really pushed it forward. The only thing I can suggest is that you go to the open evenings and actually see what the schools have to offer and what future plans they have for improvement.

I have no regrets sending DD to the nearest school.

[FrancesHB]

From a purely academic point of view, there's a whole load of evidence that academic high fliers do worse in schools with other academic high fliers (ie better off in "worse" school)

t.co/R6OXvEFDSn

[FrancesHB]

t.co/R6OXvEFDSn

[Nocomet]

Might think that applies very strongly to competitive DCs like DD2 in a cohort where an A* is really rare an A is going to get you plenty of praise. At the local grammar an A is the least that's expected.

My suspicion is this puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on students and that they don't develop sustainable study skills. Either they do too much work and make mistakes through tiredness and panic or they say bugger it I'll never be that good and give up.

This seems to be especially true at A level, when pacing yourself becomes really important.

[mummy1973]

op - I could have written a similar post as we have a child in yr 5 and local schools have much lower results/expectations/opportunities than one that is a 45 main journey away. We went to the open evenings last sept/oct to get a view for ourselves rather than rely on local gossip. DC really liked the one further away and so did I but I do worry about the journey and wanted to support our local school so still undecided. If it wasn't for the journey it would be a no brainer. We don't want to move as younger sibling is at school round the corner and we love where we live.