Tiffin Girls' School or Guildford High School?

[piepollocks]

Both DD1 and DD2 are currently at private school, having started their education in the state sector. We thus have personal experience of both types of education - their pros and cons - and as far as this discussion goes, we are assessing the schools independently of the sectors they operate within.

Since committing to fees for 2 children, our lifestyle has been on budget - a noticeably (rather than uncomfortably) tight budget.

In the Tiffins vs GHS debate, we have trawled over the usual arguments ad nauseum (so there probably isn't much value in going over them again here) - including the pros and cons of:

1. Facilities + extramural activities vs will DD use them sufficiently to warrant the fees?
   
2. Financial freedom/security vs the ongoing financial commitment (and the stress this could cause in uncertain times).
   

However, in our case, the circumstances are complicated somewhat by these factors:

1. Despite DD1 being highly academic, she did not getting into Tiffins so is at GHS (and loves it).
   
2. Whilst both DDs enjoy sports, neither participate in many sports nor any sports at a very high level, questioning the value we get for our fees (if the academic standard at both GHS and Tiffins are on a par - which I believe they are)
   
3. DD2 is highly academic, putting her in the sweet spot for both GHS and Tiffins:
   

3.1. won an academic scholarship to LEH
3.2. came top in the GHS entrance exam, winning a scholarship (significantly more financially motivating than the LEH scholarship)
3.3. scored 21% above the cut off mark at Tiffins (without a significant level of effort)

1. DD2 is dead set on going to Guildford High School and believes because she won such a great scholarship, she will go there.
   
2. Since DD1 went to GHS, our job security looks increasingly less secure. If there are any blips in the financial tarmac ahead of us, our ability to see both DD1 + DD2 all the way through may be compromised. However, it is equally likely that the road ahead will be smooth and we will both keep our jobs through the recession.
   

We would love to reward DD2's great success in all her entrance exams by handing the choice of school over to her. However, as her parents, we know more about what works for the whole family so feel we should be able to retain the power to make this choice. And with the uncertainty in the employment market at the moment, we also feel that the possibility of future financial stress needs to be taken into consideration.

Many disagree with us and say that if DD2 does not get to choose (which means GHS), she will be unhappy and feel that we value DD1 above her.

To complicate things even further, we are ambivalent too - we love GHS as much as DD1 + DD2 love it and we don't know Tiffin at all! However, we feel pressurised to choose GHS because DD2 and others feel it would be unfair on DD2 for us to choose Tiffin.

Your thoughts?

[Schmedz]

I would choose GHS. They are bound to offer bursary support to keep DD2 should you experience job instability as she is obviously so academic. And, as you say, there may be no problem. 6th Form also a valid point to change if the fees become unaffordable.

There will be a very grateful girl on the TGS waiting list if you decline the place :-) who may not be in a similarly great position of having two fab choices!

[piepollocks]

Good point Schmedz (re: bursary support) although I doubt we would pass a means test. It's one route I hadn't considered discussing with GHS though - so thank you for your contribution.

[Schmedz]

Wouldn't worry too much about the means test. For a current pupil whose parents experience temporary difficulty, there are usually discretionary funds available to support the family (if the girl is valuable to the school, of course!).

You have until 15 March (I think) to accept or decline the TGS offer so you have plenty of time to decide. Good luck.

[Mendi]

I have a similar situation with a DD having been offered a place at GHS and having to make a 'family' decision. It will also be a massive financial stretch for me, though I doubt I would pass a means test for bursary.

In my mind there is no question. GHS is an amazing school for an able child. My DD is completely obsessed with it already and even though it is going to mean we live extremely frugally for a long time, I think that is absolutely worth it to enable DD to take up this wonderful opportunity.

[I went to a highly academic private school myself from a very ordinary middle class household where my parents struggled financially to find the fees so I have first-hand experience of this but still think it worthwhile.]

[piepollocks]

Thanks Schmedz and Mendi - very helpful views.

[piepollocks]

Decision made.

After a week of heated family debates, we have decided on GHS. So, yes Schmedz - there will be a happy girl on the waiting list! I will tell Tiffin Girls on Monday.

I have a friend with two daughters - the oldest in in an independent, the youngest at Tiffin Girls and even after putting financial considerations to one side, she prefers Tiffin Girls. Her views of the school, staff, girls and other parents are down to earth but full of praise. This is why it has been such a tough decision to make.

By having both DDs at GHS, we will miss out on cultural diversity provided by Tiffin Girls and the additional financial freedom however GHS have been unbelievably creative in finding a solution for us and even though we are still going to have to watch the pennies, we feel it is - without hesitation - well worth it.

Through our relationship with Guildford High over the last 1.5 years (with DD1) and more recently in discussions regarding DD2, GHS has demonstrated to us that they deserve to be ranked the top independent school in the country (Sunday Times). Mrs Boulton and her staff have proven themselves (to us, anyway) to be creative, nurturing, dynamic, well balanced and outstanding in everything they do.

We could not be happier, loving the outstanding education they are providing DD1 and are looking forward to DD2 grabbing this opportunity with both hands and squeezing every ounce of fun out of this incredible school!

Thanks for the advice. We are looking forward to making someone's day on Monday.

[Schmedz]

I hardly think TGS has much cultural diversity! GHS sounds great for your girls and I am sure you wont regret your decision.

[KateShrub]

There are lots of South Asians at TGS. Not many at GHS.

[Happymum22]

DDs all been through or going through GHS and agree what a fantastic school it is and having had 2 DDs finish and now at uni and other in a graduate job, wow, the girls come out such bright, ambitious girls with great sense of humor and work hard play hard atittude. They are down to earth, many of their parents gave up lots to send them there so most really value their education and grab opportunities they are presented with. Also, the friendships they make are incredible (I am jealous!) DDs are still as close as ever with their friends, older DD living with GHS girls in London (all in graduate jobs) and they are so supportive and genuinely proud of each other.
Great choice! And must be especially hard choosing against Tiffins.

[Schmedz]

My point exactly Kate. The majority of students at TGS are Asian, but that is hardly cultural diversity!

[Eastpoint]

I hope this isn't too late, but going to GHS might be a disservice to her when it comes to university applications. If labour get in at the next election it is highly likely that there will be quotas for university places for independent school pupils. Although TGS is a selective school it is still a state school and university Chancellors are under huge pressure to reduce the number of elite university places going to independent school pupils.

[Happymum22]

OP
While GHS is fee-paying compared to other local private schools it is very balanced and a significant number are not from very wealthy families. Yes relatively most are well-off but a huge number have very hard working professional parents who are working their socks off to scrape together the fees. There is complete acceptance and absolutely no snobbishness about your background, what size house or previous school you are from.

[Schmedz]

Notfluffy - there is nothing racist about saying that having a selection of students from Asian countries is not a particularly culturally diverse school. I have taught at and attended truly culturally diverse schools - for example in one secondary school over 67 languages and over 53 countries were represented from all continents and regions of the world. That is why I don't think TGS is particularly diverse.
(I have also taught at TGS and have a number of friends who have either attended or have children there so my comment was made in comparison to other educational environments that exist). Perhaps GHS is particularly WMC and so any other cultural backgrounds in the mix of students seems diverse in comparison. But it seems ignorant (even racist) to me that people assume not attending school with a range of cultural backgrounds infers that students there don't or can't have an awareness and appreciation for the myriad of other cultures in the world simply because they do not attend school with many (any?) from those backgrounds.

[Schmedz]

I would also like to comment on the fact that although admission is supposed to be solely by ability and not parental wealth, if you can afford to live within a reasonable journey to the school and can afford the tutoring that the majority of students receive to get in you are in a reasonable financial situation. The cost of housing in Kingston and surrounds is exceptionally high! Only 0.7% of the students at TGS are eligible for free school meals - that is 4 girls out of the 895 on roll. Compare that to other schools in London where that figure is closer to 50% and it is clear that TGS is as MC as it gets.
In terms of demographics, TGS is probably no more diverse than GHS, so don't worry OP!
Btw, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being MC and any girl lucky/academically able enough to attend either of the schools under discussion should appreciate her opportunities. I just dislike the pretence that
TGS is anything other than what it is!

[KateShrub]

notfluffy:

the number of white girls at the school declines year-on-year. As of 2010, it was 42.7%. 2011 40.6%. 2012 37.1%. The number of girls of Asian background was in 2010 43.4%, 2011 47.0%, 2012 50%.

At Hollyfield School, down the road, the figures are:

white 2010: 63%, 2012 62.4%, Asian 2010: 13.1%, Asian 2012: 13.3%

The latter figures are I believe representative of the ethnic makeup of area children, the former most definitely are not.

Because schools turn their intake over every 7 years, a fall from 40.6% to 37.1% suggests that the new intake is less than 37.1% white.

I'm not sure what you mean by Bengal, but the number of girls of Bangladeshi background at the school is very low - under 1% (likewise Pakistani). There are lots of Indian and Sri Lankan girls though.

In terms of demographics GHS would be much less diverse, being mostly white, however as Surrey is over 90% white, this is no surprise. Why TGS has so many Asian girls given that neighbouring schools are only around 10% Asian is not clear.

Because of intensive (£££) tutoring at all London grammar schools it is almost impossible for poor children to get in, and as mentioned above there is less than 1% FSM girls at Tiffin Girls. I doubt GHS is any different in this respect.

Although there are probably quite a few paper property millionaires at TGS due to the obscene house price inflation left of the last government (not to mention unprecedented levels of immigration), there will likely be more properly rich multimillionaires at GHS.

[Schmedz]

Good points Kate. Now they have changed the entrance procedure to include English and Maths (worth 70%) of the mark required to be accepted, I am pretty sure there will be a slightly more balanced representation of the actual population (although initially the VR and NVR tests are used to select those who sit those papers). It will be interesting to see the school ethnicity figures for the upcoming Year 7 intake and also in coming years. VR and NVR testing procedures target certain types of intelligences and these are significantly associated with certain cultural backgrounds. Not solely, but significantly.

[KateShrub]

I wouldn't bet on that Schmedz. At Henrietta Barnett, they test English and only 24% of the cohort is white. The % of Asian children there is 60%.

Actually Henrietta Barnett is one of the least white grammar schools in the country - behind Ilford, Woodford, Handsworth, Slough, Langley and its neighbour, QEB.

There is no reason to assume that a change in admissions procedure will alter the trend.

[Schmedz]

Could HB and the other 'less white' selective schools more accurately represent the local population than at TGS? Also, if initial selection to sit the English and maths papers is based on VR and NVR then perhaps the results will not change so much.
As a teacher who regularly reviews the VR and NVR results of our (reasonably culturally diverse) students, it is consistently the Asian students who score most highly on these sort of tests. Other, absolutely fantastic, creative, lateral thinkers and problem solvers who achieve highly in all areas of the curriculum, often (and surprisingly) perform poorly in comparison.

[Schmedz]

Actually, do the schools you mention Kate have any catchment criteria?

[piepollocks]

What a good debate - very interesting. We're still happy with our decision and not too worried about positive discrimination either. Thanks everyone!

[piepollocks]

We let DD2's place at TGS go today. It wasn't easy. I hope we made someone's day.

[fondofuk]

Some people are making me sick. Asian girls who are good at reasoning papers are "robots" and white girls who can't solve reasoning papers and numbers are creative problem solvers??? My impression so far is thatmost white middle class parents don't even try and just hope their children have "happy" school life. Most Asians be South Asians or East Asians don't see education that way. One is simply more desperate or serious than another group! As simple as that.

[Sashmckyx]

I know this is a little late but my daughter attends TGS and she too had to decide between TGS and GHS. We live alot closer to TGS and as my daughter is extremely academic we decided to send her there. Although TGS is not known for its sport my daughter does 8-10 hours of rowing a week which she absolutely loves! As for the % of non-white girls at the school I would say it is very high, in my daughters class there are no girls who are fully English, although there are some Australians and one American. She says the friendship groups are extremely mixed, and nobody is judged by their race and that is her favourite part of tgs. In her primary school she was teased for being half Indian, as she did not look it and everyone believed she was lying but at TGS many girls think it is really cool to be half Asian. We were worried that she might be teased in GHS. Also my daughter was worried that the girls in GHS would be very rich and although our family is very well off she was still not convinced. My daughter has had her heart set on TGS since she was born :D however, my daughter joined in 2011 and obviously the examination is very different now. She told me the GHS exam was alot easier and my second daughter reported the same, however my second daughter did not get through the new examination at TGS and so if any girl at the moment is deciding between TGS and GHS it is almost more of a novelty to go to TGS with it's difficult examination. But that is just my opinion :D. And one last thing- any parent willing to pay for TGS tutoring can afford to send their child to GHS so the money is not an issue... :)