Year 12 can't focus enough to get facts on paper

[Foyled]

Long story cut short, DD managed OK up to now but problems at GCSE (did well in the end) getting coursework done etc. V disorganised, late for lessons. Very bright, understands the work asks good questions but is not completing homework or doesn't write enough, sat at a test with her head on the desk. Teachers say she hasn't the patience to think things through, if she doesn't know immediately she gives up.

She tells me she can't do it, a test an essay etc and they won't help.

I think they have given up on her, just had parents evening from hell.

Does any of this sound familiar and any suggestions?

[gingeroots]

Oh dear how dreadful for you both .
School not sounding very helpful....what do they reckon is going on ?
Must be more to it than her giving up ?
Anyway ,sorry not to be any help ,sympathies and bump .

[senua]

It is a big jump from GCSE to A Level; it is not 'more of the same'. Lots of kids struggle with the transition.
Everyone finds it hard at some stage. It could be in Year 1, in Year 12 or in their Masters degree. Those who struggle early on have to find coping strategies which stands them in good stead later on; they learn how to learn. Those who cruise through earlier stages can find it really difficult when they do finally hit the buffers and do not have coping strategies in place.

Tell her:
-she needs to learn how to learn, exam techniques etc. These things are not innate, they can be learned.
-teachers will help if she asks for help.

• but she is beyond the childish spoon-feeding stage, part of sixth form is learning how to manage yourself.
  

-she is not alone in this, plenty of others struggle but plenty of others pull through, too.


"Teachers say she hasn't the patience to think things through, if she doesn't know immediately she gives up"

Does she know all the Edison quotes? e.g.
"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."
"Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration"
"Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time."

[Foyled]

Thanks for your replies.

I expect she does know the Edison quotes...

We are going to make some changes at our end, cutting down on activities etc to give her more time to get on with work, she is OK when she gets going but takes forever to do so. She may give up a subject we are giving her the choice.

Then I am going to speak to the school again and ask them what they are going to do to help her, they are obsessed with her lack of organisation while I think they should be addressing the problem of getting what is in her head on to the page. She needs to do this to prove to herself that she can.

Having said that she worked harder than I have ever seen her over the Christmas holidays so I was hoping for more of a "shaky start but getting there" kind of parents evening. That said, one subject gets ignored completely (essay based).

Do you think this is the right approach?

[gingeroots]

I wish I could offer some good advice - especially as I have a DS with several of same habits -takes forever to get going ,enormous trouble getting stuff down on paper ,disorganised .
Think you're right to persue the line of " what are you doing to help her ? "
If they're obseesed with her being disorganised ,what strategies do they suggest to help her overcome this ?
I just could beat my head against the wall for all the times I've been told that DS should " focus " ,be more organised .
What we want to know is how do they achieve that ?
It's not just a question of flipping a switch .

[Foyled]

They have tried to help her with organisation, made her come in early and sort out her bag, gave her printed lists etc. (like she needs more loose sheets of paper).

I really don't think there is any value in telling someone they aren't organised (I have had it said to me and it is quite hurtful). It makes you want to sort yourself out even less.

There are disorganised people who have done well in life aren't there? Please!

Am I digressing?

[frazmum]

My DD is the same age and agree with others that it is a big jump, both in knowledge and having to manage yourself, rather than the teachers being more hands on like with GCSE's.

Could you get her some help on the essay writing and study side? It is a skill that has to be learnt, just because you know the answer doesn't mean you can write it down. That may also help with with organising notes and time hopefully. Maybe look into getting a tutor.

[Renniehorta]

My ds was just the same in year 12. He passed 3 of 4 AS with very low grades at the end of the year. After one week of year 13, he came home and told me he had quit. He did not have a plan B.

He is now in year 3 studying MFL at a Russell Group Uni. He tells me now that he just did not put enough thought into what he was studying and was just not interested. After some months he changed direction and reengaged in education via the OU. Now he has none of the problems of disorganisation, lack of punctuality, scruffy work he suffered from in year 12.

Maybe your dd has just drifted into year 12 without thinking it all through like my ds.

[Foyled]

Can you do A levels through OU? Very impressed he got there in the end, this sort of story is what I need at the moment.

I sometimes think she would be better on some sort of correspondence/online course.

I wouldn't know which subject to get her a tutor in, think she would be very resistant too.

[Renniehorta]

No you can't do A Levels at the OU. You can do equivalent courses. My ds did the first 2 level courses in Spanish taking him to just above A grade A level. He also did English at the equivalent of year 2 at uni.

He did very well, getting the equivalent of a first in his English. Throughout this period he was entirely self motivated. It took a year and he got his uni place before his OU results. Apparently 'brick' unis are very keen on ex OU students because they already have most of the study skills for uni unlike spoon-fed AL students.

So, yes, there are other routes.

[Foyled]

Thanks

[Archmum]

It might be worth getting her assessed. We had similar problems with DS1 during GCSEs. Year 10 was a nightmare and we didn't think he would pass a single exam. He just couldn't write anything down and would sit in front of the coputer for hours getting more and more frustrated and upset. We ended up paying for a private assessment just before he went into year 11. It turns out he is dyslexic and dyspraxic and the school had completely missed it. He was given extra time for exams and he uses a computer as his handwriting is so bad. He left with a whole string of As and A*s. He is now in Year 13 and is predicted 3 As at A level. The difference is just amazing.
You can try asking the school for an assessment but they are often reluctant.

[Decentdragon]

Coming at this from a different angle; (and maybe incorrectly not knowing your daughter, but mum of a now coping previously failing son, who couldn?t get help...)

I?m going to struggle to explain well but?

they are obsessed with her lack of organisation while I think they should be addressing the problem of getting what is in her head on to the page

The two may well be linked actually, but if she?s got to this age unsorted, imo you?ve got to work on all skill development equally.

I?d start by unpicking the ?blame game? because while the student (or teacher) is 'blamed' for the problem there?s a wall up on both sides.

Is it really that ?she doesn?t have the patience to think things through?, (a negative personal quality = blame the student for their ?failures?)
or
is it she doesn?t have the tools to know HOW to, (someone other than her would take any ?blame? for that = Ooops we?ve messed up and have to fix it) and frustration kicks in?

Does she know how to organise her thoughts on paper?

Does she know how to plan an essay / written response?

Has she got systems to fall back on if she doesn?t know the instant answer, so she doesn?t just drown in hopelessness/ frustration?

Does she recognise theoretically that poor organisation results in frustration /impatience? (Regardless of if she can or can?t do it)

Some of the answers to those questions might be the starting point for things that can be done to help her.

[Foyled]

Interesting that it is mothers' of sons that are expressing similar problems, she is at an all girls school (boys in sixth form) and I think perhaps there wouldn't be so much fuss if she were a boy and perhaps she would be better understood.

Decentdragon

I?d start by unpicking the ?blame game? because while the student (or teacher) is 'blamed' for the problem there?s a wall up on both sides. Agree it is stalemate.

Is it really that ?she doesn?t have the patience to think things through?, (a negative personal quality = blame the student for their ?failures?)
or
is it she doesn?t have the tools to know HOW to, (someone other than her would take any ?blame? for that = Ooops we?ve messed up and have to fix it) and frustration kicks in?

I don't know, I feel she is frightened of making an effort and still doing badly so writes very little or odd notes in pencil (which are apparently along the right lines)don't think the teachers buy this though.

Does she know how to organise her thoughts on paper?

Probably,I suspect she doesn't know the facts well enough to write anything she feels is good enough.

Does she know how to plan an essay / written response?

Haven't a clue.

Has she got systems to fall back on if she doesn?t know the instant answer, so she doesn?t just drown in hopelessness/ frustration?

Clearly not.

Does she recognise theoretically that poor organisation results in frustration /impatience? (Regardless of if she can or can?t do it)

Probably not.

I think she has it in her head that she is disorganised and there is no cure which is why I wish they would stop mentioning it. If they said "put all your papers in your file" rather than "get organised" it would be more helpful.

She is definitely not dyslexic, I've wondered about dyspraxia but dismissed that as well, certainly not run of the mill...

[Decentdragon]

Afraid being a boy didn?t result in help or understanding either, he just got written off as incapable.

Just thoughts, not sure how much use they are to you.

If she can?t write something good enough, could she write anything how ever poor as a ?scaffold? and then work on it. Feeling what you?re doing?s ?not good enough? is a definite barrier.

If she doesn?t already know how to plan and write a 5 paragraph, point, evidence, expansion, essay style answer, learning it would give her something to fall back on.

She?d benefit from systems for what to do if you don?t have a good answer.

Someone needs to actually teach and show her what organisation is and how it could help her, and then help her be organised. (had to do this for son) I don?t know about a cure for it as such, but understanding and working with it?s taken him from totally failing to doing well, though it?s been a lot of work and patience and going back to basics to move forward.

It might be worth having a read here: dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/services/ad_symptoms.php We didn?t look for exact diagnosis as most of it fits under the one?s he has, but from son?s point of view realising it wasn?t his fault and there was lots he might be able to do about things was helpful.

[Appletrees]

Zinc. 30mg at bedtime every day.

[gingeroots]

Think the sort of brainstorm ,get something down in rough is good idea .
We also used to get DS to verbalise the answer ,speak into dicataphone ,play it back and make notes .
But that's too long winded to be a permanent soloution .
Decentdragon ,assuming you've not penned a handy book and also that you're not available for private tution ,could you give an example/tiny insight into how you managed to teach your DC the art of organisation ?
( and I'd get writing - gap in the market !.

[freerangeeggs]

Your daughter reminds me of a couple of kids I teach - one girl in particular, who is utterly lovely and extremely clever, but lacks confidence to the extent that, at times, she just opts out. Head on the desk during tests - sounds familiar!

I've been trying to stress the importance of planning - brainstorm first, then start to organise thoughts into paragraphs before finally writing them in essay form. Exams are so daunting; I often think the most difficult bit is getting started. Try breaking the exam down into timed sections too so that she can see a begining and an end to each chunk and she can tackle it in bite-sized pieces rather than seeing it as a monumental task.

[Foyled]

I don't think it is an expression thing, it is more a problem with thinking things through, she says she doesn't understand what is required...

Perhaps it is just an excuse.

Round and round in circles.

[EvilTwins]

I am a sixth form tutor and I think that what you are describing is quite common in Yr 12 students. The problem that quite a few in my tutor group are having is that they feel they have been cast adrift a bit in joining sixth form - Yr 11 is very much about teachers managing the students, yet in Yr 12, students are supposed to be able to manage themselves, effectively, from day 1. Often teachers think "ahhh, marvellous! Sixth Form - they want to be here, they've chosen their own subjects, they will be motivated and organised!" and forget that one has to learn to be organised. It sounds like your DD isn't getting the right sort of support in that field - what is her form tutor like? I ran a session with my tutor group about organising themselves near the beginning of term, but still found that I had to talk my Yr 12 class through organising their folders effectively last week - many were just putting work in randomly, rather than putting new stuff in behind old stuff. In KS4, a lot of this is done for the students, but in KS5, it falls to them, sometimes without sufficient guidance.

Does your DD have free periods in her timetable? Try to encourage her to use them wisely. Many sixth formers use that as social time, and then end up with mountains of work to do at the weekends, when they might also have part time jobs, extra curricular activities and socialising to do. If she can use some of her frees to get on top of work, whilst she's at school and the teachers are on hand to answer questions, that might make a difference - could you sit with her, and mark on her timetable when she's going to dedicate frees to work? Then she needs to get into the habit of using them as she has planned.

[Foyled]

Sorry, may have misled slightly, school very aware what is going on and have tried to help with organisation in the past (although since being in the 6th form in a rather punitive way), they are saying she is exactly the same and unless she changes there is little hope, which is why I think they have given up on her.

She worked well this weekend btw...

[Foyled]

I am going to email her head of sixth form to say that we have made her cut down on her activities which we hope will help and that we also hope they have not given up on her which was the impression I got at parents evening.

I will also say that I think they are over emphasizing the organisation issue but are underplaying her problems with getting her thoughts on paper.

I am also going to say we understand she is far from the perfect student...

Good idea or not?

[danebury]

I wouldn't apologise for her, poor love. I teach English to Y12 and at the start of the course I really do spoonfeed them a lot about how to organise their files, how the course will be structured and so on. Have the school looked at her learning style? Lessons planned according to learning style are still relevant at this stage.

It might help her to become very familiar with all the Assessment Objectives for her subjects, as well as how they are weighted. Forewarned is definitely forearmed in this instance.

Can she record the lessons and transcribe them later?

[hesterprynne]

My Yr12 daughter, could be the twin of yours. Bright and articulate but apparently unable to turn that it into the written word, and has the GSCE results to prove it :(

After years of trying to deal with, I have come to the conclusion that the root cause is a complete lack of confidence in her own intelligence - whatever she thinks of cannot possibly be what they are looking for, there must be more. So she ties herself in knots trying to think harder and ends up putting nothing down on paper, and then panics when the essay has to be in the next day. And of course panicking feeds into the spiral of 'uselessness'.

It is also obvious that English/history essays, where you have to express opinions are far harder for her than the fact-based sciences. But she must prefers those subjects - reads constantly.

Fortunately, I have been able to help her a little with the English, with lots of tears and frustration, by talking to her about the questions - just getting her to tell me what she thinks it means, making notes from that and then sorting the notes into themes - so for example write a paragraph on the different use of language, with quotes that explicitly refers to the title of the essay. Then another on structure. Then when she has three or four, look to see how they can be linked, so it's not a series of bullet points.

It seems to have helped, and a couple of better grades recently has proved that what she thinks is good enough.

So at the end of that particular essay :) my advice is to find a way to convince her that what she thinks is good enough, And
that you, her teachers, a teacher sit her down and explain properly and often enough to sink in, how to write essays. It really isn't innate magic - there are rules you can follow which may not get you straight As but ought to get you the A levels you want/need.

And btw, my 'disorganised, uninterested' DD is far less so, now she's beginning to feel that she can do this, that she's not a "thicko, who's going to fail, so what's the point."

Phew, really hope that helps :o

[Foyled]

The trouble is she can write well and actually did fine in her GCSEs, 12 subjects, ten of which were As or A*s, but it was all a bit hairy at the time and the teachers aren't convinced she can pull it out of the bag at the last minute.

It is the thinking part that she is having problems with, apparently it's the first time she has really had to and she is struggling to think logically.

She is resistant to help, but when asked why she has done such short or inadequate pieces of work says she doesn't understand the question.

I think she thinks you can either do something or that you can't and that there is little connection between working hard at something and getting a good result.

I honestly don't think she is lazy though, but easily distracted and disillusioned...

[Foyled]

Oh and thanks for the thoughtful replies.